Spiderjack setup

[kevin bingham]

Thanks Skip, sorry if I get a little worked up. I definitly realize the advantages and disadvantages of each system. A good climber can do either and it shouldn't matter. It is quite frustrating to be told that the system I find to be the safest and most efficient way for me to get around a tree is not good enough to show off. There is no argument about the Spiderjack here. I have seen with my own eyes that it can be used beautifully and smoothly and efficiently by a competent climber. when I go to a comp and they tell me I need to climb on either a spiderjack or a hitch climber because Im not competent enough to figure out a way that suits me best I am honestly offended. Then other climbers say that they have yet to see SRT used well. Its quite annoying to go to my local comp and have to use a method of climbing I personally find limiting and difficult because I might hurt myself if I use another way. I am done arguing with the judges about it. It has also been disappointing finding that many traditional ddrt climbers dont seem to have any problem not being allowed to run their systems head to head against SRWP. It must be dangerous. Or is it just slow and ineffecient

[kevin bingham]

Joe, what heats me up most is not that you find faults with SRWP I know its disadvantages and advantages. You are entitled to your opinion. I have seen people get on the RW and fail miserably and I think to myself that this system is not for them. What got me going here was that you have never seen a fast and smooth work climb SRT. There were at least 10 -12 climbers at Portland who could have shown you a bad ass climb and SRWP is their way of doing things. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion but in a sens it is us that are not entitled to our opinion. I was there in Portland, I watched you run your spiderjack work climb flawlessly, you may have watched me stumble around with my hitch climber and two ropes and the seemingly miles and miles of rope I had to tend. Not a smooth climb at all. Next SRT friendly work climb will be at the end of October. I will try to make it and make sure it is video taped. I havent seen a video ever though of any work climb that did it any justice.

[joe into trees]

Kevin, there's no need to get so worked up. After all,

 

I havent seen a video ever though of any work climb that did it any justice.

 

surely that's just what Matt and I said? I'm fairly sure that making such a video would be a deal easier than me flying to Charlotte. Skip, thank you for jumping in to protect Kevin, but I'm sure he can look after himself. Compared to the comprehensive character assassination carried out on the volunteer members of the Technical Advisory Committee, I'm playing very nice.

 

As for this issue about SRWP not being allowed at the ITCC, which this thread (like so many before) seems to have been digressed into.... perhaps we should start by reminding ourselves that in fact SRWP WAS allowed at the ITCC - Jared Abrojena won the aerial rescue very nicely on his Rig.

 

I find it hard to answer all of your different posts Kevin. Some of your points

(set up by ddrt climbers)

are really interesting, and are going to be even more so in the future, when techs have the option of setting up a work climb which 'favours' DdRT or one which 'favours' SRWP.

 

But some of the things you say

All these comps going on right now without srt dont mean a danged thing.

are almost not worth replying to. No tree climbing competition can tell you who the best climber is - as an experienced competitor you know this already. I know (from working with him) that Scott Forrest is a better climber than me. Finishing ahead of him in this last comp makes no difference to that. The ISA/ITCC format competitions feature events (speed climb, footlock) which have nothing to do with how I climb for work, and the comp has nothing like spur-climbing or rigging at all. All the competition can do is tell you who did best on that particular day, in those particular trees, with those particular judges... and according to those particular rules. (At the end of the day, as you know, the last ITCC prelims were decided almost completely by the throwline.) If I designed a tree climbing comp from scratch, it might look completely different, and have completely different winners.

 

So, if you want to take part in ISA/ITCC comps, those are the rules you play by. One of those rules is that, as of the last couple of years, a committee of experts assembled from around the world has oversight on equipment and techniques. Maybe you would have beaten Beddes if the RW had been allowed (for your sake, after all this online whinging, I really hope that the comps are all won by SRWP climbers once the RW/HH etc are approved!) or maybe not, but it wasn't and that's the end of the story in terms of history. It's no different to someone saying that they would have done better if there wasn't a footlock or if the throwline was only 20 points. It's a shame that, instead of having fun and playing nice, and taking part in the competition on those terms, you have spent your time undercutting the value of the competition and the character of its organisers.

 

Anyway, back to the point in hand. I touched off this minor tempest by commenting (in an SJ thread) that I wasn't sold on SRWP, and hadn't seen what I would describe as a smooth, continuous SRWP work climb. I understand what you're saying - that I might have done if the RW had been allowed at the ITCC - and you may well be right. To really convince me, the climb (or video of a climb) would have to feature those elements which SRWP (in my experience at least) struggles with: really tricky limb-walks, and repeated short ascents.

 

You're welcome to take part in the upcoming Victorian TCC Kevin, if you fancy the trip over. When is Charlotte?

[Taupotreeman]

I wonder if the OP has got lost in all this discussion between SWRP and DDRT and is wondering if it was worth posting in the first place.

 

For the record, I have both the SJ and RW in my bag because I'm greedy and I can. I'm far from a fantastic climber and I don't enter comps because they don't interest me that much ( as far as getting involved in the actual comp climbing). When I'm working I almost always pull out the SJ first just because it's what I'm used to. I still find the wrench alien, at least for ascending, although I can see the benefits, and have also felt them after a decent work climb. Problem is, I don't climb as much as I used too and, being older, I'm still a little set in my ways. I'm sure there are climbers of my age that climb everyday and love SWRP but I just don't use it enough at the moment to pull it out of the bag before the SJ.

[kevin bingham]

Thanks joe. I would love to go to the victorian. I was thinking about this whole argument a bit and realizing how ridiculous it really is. In a sense the comps are pretty ridiculous as well. To clarify that the comps dont mean anything without srt: i go to comps to see and learn things from competent climbers. My point is not that the rw ias better than ddrt. It is for me, a lot of people its not at all. I am considerably faster srt than ddrt but not everyone will be. I feel repressed as a competent climber with something to share. The most common reason given to me for not allowimg the RW is not that there is a danger but that i may be a bad influence on other climbers. Its not just the rope wrench though, its the whole process for incorporating inovation into these events. To me its not about who wins, its whether or not there is cool stuff to see. Right now the itcc is years and years behind. Its hard to get to the itcc. Dont you think that making it there should mean that you have shown a bit of competence? Enough competence to share yiur style with others? To prove that im not going to fall out of tree? What was your submission process for the spiderjack? I have never had a problem coming back from a limb walk. I used to come back from limbwalks with an srt style even on ddrt. Tending slack is so much easier for me srt. Its all a matter of personal style. There was a great opputunity in the last four internationals to show a different style, but it hasnt worked out. Maybe in toronto someone else will have better luck with their submission. That really burnt me out honestly on the whole thing. Not sure whose loss that is. As for who wins, as you say, the comps dont say much about who or what is best, but the comps are not representative, and they are boring, and people traveled all over the world and still havent seen a fast or smooth work climb srt and dont think its possible. It is, and im pissed, not at anyine in particular, at myself for sure for not navigatkng the

Maze better etc. But i really do not believe showing people my style is bad influence.

[joe into trees]

Guess I misunderstood then, sorry. I thought by comments like [we] "look at any comp without SRT and say "yeah well asterix"" that you were in some way discounting the results from the recent ITCC. If all you meant is that you didn't learn anything from the top climbers from around the world who took part, and you found it boring, then most of my previous post was completely irrelevant.

 

I wonder if the OP has got lost in all this discussion between SWRP and DDRT and is wondering if it was worth posting in the first place.

 

Dead right, and I'd leave it here - most threads on arborist forums around the world are already filled with moaning about the RW not being approved, which is all that this has turned out to be.

 

I used to be on the Technical Advisory Committee; I left after qualifying to climb at the last ITCC, as I thought it would be a conflict of interest to continue to have oversight on competitors' techniques. Whilst I sat on that committee, it would have been inappropriate to have engaged in this relentless online bickering - although to be honest it feels futile now. However, it does mean that I know that the reason the RW was not allowed at the recent ITCC was not due to fears about it being a bad influence or any rubbish like that. Insufficient test data was submitted by the closing date for consideration - Kevin, you and I both know that, regardless of how you choose to represent it elsewhere.

 

Yes, there is an argument that no technical oversight need take place. As a competition organiser, I have seen home-made (ie, hand-sewn) 'Grizzly' splices, the wrong splices in cordage, as well as a huge variety of incorrect gear assemblies and equipment. At the ITCC level, there was more concern about cutting-edge configurations and systems - things exactly like the RW, or (previously) the f8-revolver - which might be assembled by very competent climbers, who nevertheless suffer from the tendency of creative, focused inventors to overlook things which they see as tangential to their creations. As such, a committee was assembled, composed of people deemed expert in these topics, from ISA chapters aroud the world. For me, sitting on that committee meant monthly conference calls, often between 6am - 8am, which (as a contract climber) as you can imagine was extremely difficult. The reading material and 'homework' for these calls took up valuable time from the rest of my life, in addition to other volunteer commitments.

 

Kevin, you finally bothered to submit some moderately complete test data after the closing date for consideration, and you are blaming the committee for not approving the RW?? I salute you for the innovation of the rope wrench - it is a brilliant idea, and looks to change the face of climbing, one way or another - but I can't help but feel that your continual, ongoing efforts to drag down everyone with oversight on the approval process is not a pleasant sight. By the time you include the various committees, the TAC and other persons involved along the way, you have upwards of 20 internationally respected climbers and experts, who - based on the data submitted by the cutoff date - arrived at a consensus decision to not approve the RW for the 2012 ITCC.

 

Option 1: All of these people are ignorant, cut-off-from-the-real-world 'suits', whose vested interests and pie-grubbied fingers prevented them from making the right decision

 

Option 2: Not enough test data was submitted

 

A small group of very vocal people have done a great job on the various online forums of convincing themselves - and probably lots of other climbers along with them - that Option 1 is the case. I've reached the point where I'm getting a bit sick of letting them get away with that convenient fiction - especially knowing that a committee of smart, engaged, talented climbers and technicians - who volunteer their time when other people are just sitting around posting on forums - are having their names dragged through the mud over this.

 

But yes, Taupotreeman, we've wandered a long way from the original post, back into overly familiar territory. I generally stay well away from these debates (same old people with the same old comments every time) but it gets a bit much when you can't even express an opinion - in an SJ thread - without it ending up in an argument about RW approval at the ITCC.

 

Kevin, I'm sorry you're not going to be in Toronto. There's a very high chance I won't be either though, so it makes a lot more sense to make a video than to rely on meeting up! Plus, that way everyone gets to watch it. I watched your video of Sam Cooper's work climb but unfortunately, other than the video description below the clip, it was impossible to work out what was happening at all. I wasn't even sure if there was a climber in shot for most of the video! Maybe something a little bit clearer than that?

Edited September 29, 2012 by joe into trees
mis-spelt committee

[browncow]

Ha ha, I have no comment on the rope wrench but that Sam Cooper vid is totally awesome quality. Was that a tree?

[Ewan Murray]

I have really enjoyed this thread and it's good to see both sides of a story, pity it's incredibly off topic from the Op, thanks to Joe and Kevin for shining a light on a few points i didn't know about. Im sitting on the fence regarding this topic, i love my spiderjack as much as my rope wrench it's about the right tool for the right job for me.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2

[kevin bingham]

Joe, i think youve misunderstood much that i am saying, i am not blaming anyone or anything or any group. I realize i have not done things i maybe should have. I am new to this. I am expressing frustration that you have not seen a fast smooth work climb srt. Thats all. I also was not bored or un impressed by the climbing i saw in portland. A little not the way i would do it but AWESOME none the less. I loved every minute of it. I have a few more points i will adress now that this thread is completely hijacked but im going to be gone for a few days.

[MOG]

haha loved Sam Copper work climb, so fast and smooth now i ready understand how good it can be. i am converted! SRT all the way! keep them quality Vid's coming. so we can all see how good it is. come on guys, camera decent tree, and climb. simple........ now i am really looking forward to the next one:) be hard to beat that tho;p

 

mog