Buzzard "Management" Research to go ahead

[Sam Thompson]

I've seen buzzards evolve into very capable hunters over the last 20 years of my gamekeeping career, anyone who thinks that buzzards are lazy and would rather eat carrion than take a healthy pheasant poult is welcome to come to my shoot and I'll put a dead rabbit in a pheasant pen full of poults and you see what he takes!! I think by managing the buzzards it will create an opening for the thousands of kites that have been released into our countryside!!!! I have seen 27 red kites sat on post in between partridge release sites waiting for a buzzard to kill when it does the kites mob him until he lets it go, the kite takes it off and eats it the buzzard kills again and the same happens until the buzzard gets fed up I counted 17 partridges killed by the same buzzard in one morning before he got one for himself and £40 a bird you can understand why most shoots don't want buzzards or kites! Just my opinion and observations.

 

Ditto!

 

I don't oppose the control of vermin, protection of crops, or well thought through attempts to remedy an imbalance created through previous poor practice, e.g. eradication of introduced species which prove damaging to the ecosystem. I'm quite happy with the current grey squirrel cull in Northumbria, have shot a lot of pigeons and starlings (the latter to protect a cherry crop) and whilst I no longer shoot, I let someone come and shoot on my land.

 

 

It is however important to understand the effects of any such 'intervention' through small scale trials with careful monitoring, rather than leaping in and creating a different problem.

 

I quite agree mate, I would not put anything on the general licence without research, it is not prudent.

 

The ecosystem would maintain a balance if it was left alone, just as it did for millenia before we started to change it for our own ends. If the capercaillie, or grouse, or whatever else, were left to get on with it then a natural balance between predators and the predated would ensue in fairly short order the overall populations being determined by the food available at each level of the food chain. If the land was not managed it would revert, the area of natural moor would be much smaller so the populations would reduce, but become stable.

 

I'm afraid that without commercial shooting there would be no black grouse at all, at least not in the Pennines. The income generated by grouse moors is what pays for the predator control that allows black game to thrive. I was told the other day that in the past two years in the Pennines the population has gone from an estimated 400 to 1,000 Cappers'. The lowest number of any estate is on the RSPB's "flagship" reserve at Geltsdale, they do not conduct any predator control. Food for thought

 

However, man has a desire to intervene. Your comment 'if we ever want good numbers of black game' is, I imagine, an implicit statement of 'if people want to go and shoot them for sport'.

 

Pretty much, as this indicates there is a surplus and that is good.

 

 

Firstly because I think it's a morally questionable branch of the entertainment industry. If you try to work out the reasons why people want to kill things when it's not for food, protection of crops of defence of themselves or their family (and I've never heard of 'when grouse attack') then I can only think it comes down to the exercising of power, which is not in my opinion a good justification. I accept that it creates employment, but so did bear baiting and cock fighting, and numerous other things which are no longer accepted. Alternative use of the land may also create employment.

 

Economical benefits are far less than the conservation values. Gamekeepers manage more than 1.3million hectares of land in this country helping among others brown hare, songbirds and wading birds by controlling predators like fox and mink. Feeding over winter helps grey partridge, skylarks and yellowhammers, and the rest. Birds of prey also do well on managed land, contrary to what you will hear from certain bodies! Two thirds of shoots in the are smaller than 1000ha, and a quarter being smaller than 250ha, so not really big fat man who only care about killing many things.

 

 

As an aside, I recall that as a child, pheasants outside of autumn were a very rare sight. With warmer winters they seem to be naturalising. It would be an interesting piece of research to see whether they are out-competing native species for food and habitat and in fact there need to be some control measures.

 

 

That isn't the case from what I have seen, the stories I have heard from old keepers imply that the wild pheasant population is decreasing. When I look at some old game books (1890-1917, the bloke got killed at the Somme) from an area I used to frequent in Cheshire. You can tell the habitat that has been lost due to agricultural changes - silage pits where copse's use to stand and the chap shot hares. Where he was shooting 40 different species in the same area you would be lucky to find 15 now

 

Finally, I have heard it said that one of the favourite foods of the buzzard is the grass snake. It will be interesting to see if this is concluded in the study.

 

Alec

 

Seen a few adders skinned out by a Buzzard. Two so far this year and only one alive

 

 

 

Alec, you put across some good points, and I agree with a lot of what your saying, you probably know a lot of the facts and stuff above, but a few people who look at this thread won't - I think it's important for people to understand what is going on on "my" side of the fence!

 

 

Atb

 

Sam

[Sam Thompson]

Whilst I think I know what you mean, but I would have thought the scale must be insignificant when put against productive land.

 

I also think that most land managed for sporting purposes comes second to it's agricultural value, certainly this is my experience away from the fells and highlands.

 

However, I would be interested to understand your alternatives to the present system.

 

Me too!

[Mycoman]

But why is DEFRA - ie you, me and everybody - paying for research specifically into threats to pheasants? I'm a shooting man myself, but I can see why having taxpayers' money spent this way, in austerity Britain, isn't great PR for the country way of life. Better, surely, for a shooting organisation (or individual?) to fund it then trumpet any 'collateral benefits' in terms of protection of lapwings, etc.?

[HCR]

But why is DEFRA - ie you, me and everybody - paying for research specifically into threats to pheasants? I'm a shooting man myself, but I can see why having taxpayers' money spent this way, in austerity Britain, isn't great PR for the country way of life. Better, surely, for a shooting organisation (or individual?) to fund it then trumpet any 'collateral benefits' in terms of protection of lapwings, etc.?

 

I guess for similar reasons that the tourist board would pay to research potential threats to tourism or indeed DEFRA would pay to look into farming issues.

 

The sporting shoot is an industry that creates jobs, manages land (often in ways better for biodiversity than farming) and brings in foreign currency.

 

Personally, I am inclined against culling buzzards, particularly having led a re-establishment programme for them in the late 90s. However, this was in an area with a general raptor paucity so I can speak with little experience of areas with excesses of the things.

[Sam Thompson]

But why is DEFRA - ie you, me and everybody - paying for research specifically into threats to pheasants? I'm a shooting man myself, but I can see why having taxpayers' money spent this way, in austerity Britain, isn't great PR for the country way of life. Better, surely, for a shooting organisation (or individual?) to fund it then trumpet any 'collateral benefits' in terms of protection of lapwings, etc.?

 

Benefits to hill farming would be large I think. But as stated by HCR, shooting puts a lots of money into rural areas, in some areas more than anything else. As the department of rural affairs I think they should be looking into ways to increase the productivity of rural areas.

 

I guess for similar reasons that the tourist board would pay to research potential threats to tourism or indeed DEFRA would pay to look into farming issues.

 

The sporting shoot is an industry that creates jobs, manages land (often in ways better for biodiversity than farming) and brings in foreign currency.

 

Personally, I am inclined against culling buzzards, particularly having led a re-establishment programme for them in the late 90s. However, this was in an area with a general raptor paucity so I can speak with little experience of areas with excesses of the things.

 

It's research not into culling but control. My personal opinion of non lethal control is pretty plain to see I think, however DEFRA are looking into this before any lethal methods are discussed.

[jacjak]

I think its wrong to kill buzzards just because they are killing something we want to kill, we pretty much almost wiped them out once but obviously have not learnt from it and if we really think this is about anything other than game birds i think we are being a bit naive plus you look at how many young pheasants you see dead on the roads iv counted over forty on one short country road i would of thought against these losses what is lost to birds of prey must be quite small

and i dont think that 20000 acre estate owner who is passionate about shooting is the right person to be overseeing this

from what i can gather the destruction of nests is to start next week:sneaky2:

[WorcsWuss]

Defra are an absolute shambles so I wouldn't expect anything of any real use to come out of this.

Top level predator control needs to be carried out in order for the natural order to be maintained. However, this is not that, it's dabbling, and probably in the wrong place, so I couldn't give a hoot whether anything comes of it or not.

Predatory birds, badgers, foxes etc do all need controlling I agree. But as has been alluded to, the most effective top level predator also needs controlling, and that's us.

But since we created warm homes and developed medicine, our weak and feeble bodies have been allowed to survive far beyond the original design limits. And our feeble minds have caused both cruelty and oversensitivity towards our wild cousins in equal measure.

Fiddling about with a few Buzzards [and I can see both sides of the argument here as a shooter, farmer and lover of wildlife and the countryside, particularly 'big birds'!] will not make a huge impression on that needed to restore the balance of things.....

In my view they need to sort out badgers first, that's a very real problem still costing animals and people very real suffering and the tax payer very real money....

Edited May 30, 2012 by WorcsWuss

[Charlieh]

to coin a phrase There are "Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

 

having done my degree and MSc thesis on game management and effects on species of conservation interest, we could all be give the same raw data about buzzards, but by using different interpretation and statistics we could all come up with an answer that suits us, to be fair the money in DEFRA's tender for this means its going to be a really small scale trail as you simply can do the ground work required for a detailed study on that budget IMHO, unless you use it fund a couple of PhD's with it then you may get some impartial but decent data.

 

Im really supprised that they have done this for buzzards before DEFRA have done research on sparrowhawks which has been regarded as in issue for the last 15+years, although most of this sparrowhark research has already been done by the likes of GWCT. I think this comes on the back of some serious lobbying by the NGO bigwigs but certainly on the ground in eastern England I used to keeper on buzzards didnt even surface on the radar as being an issue.

 

Hopefully sensible decisions are made, as having worked for various bodies including the local joint raptor study group the last thing the conservation sector in the country needs is more material to cause arguments, what is really required is compromise on all sides, I have worked with very co-operative keepers on the moors, and some that are very wary, likewise I have also had dealings with Raptor groups that wont actually work with people in the conservation sector. Until a compromise be reached the stalemate will continue.

 

FTR I shoot have done all my life and I have yet to see a well managed proper shoot with a decent keeper that has an issue with raptors. the first thing i look for on the farm land is what state the environment is in, as if its being managed well for nature then game normally does ok, so good hedges are a must, if you butcher hedges every year then your going to have raptor predation as you removing a significant amout of cover and movement corridors for the wildlife. Even little things like consideration of where to site release pens, if you make a big opening in the woodland and then sit a pen full of 400ready meals in it with an abundance of perching points around it your going to have issues.

 

I have found a lot of so called keepers now dont want to put the leg work in, dont even get me started on red-legs on grouse moors

 

 

I had convinced myself i wasnt going to get drawn into this as well

Edited May 30, 2012 by Charlieh

[Mycoman]

BBC News - Buzzard capture plans abandoned after 'public concerns'

[armybloke]

A good post - as an a ecologist for the Wildlife Trust we get in to a variety of discussions about our raptor poulations. Whilst it is apparent that Buzzard populations have enjoyed a period of success there are mixed opinions on this thread that would possibly see a dip due to public pressure. A number of issues have been highlighted in the media spotlight of late (foxes by way of example). Human populations have risen to a 'worrying' (for who) level. Food resources are being stretched, water is a sacred commodity and so the list goes on. Where are our animals supposed to live if we as a race take up large areas of land that once they hunted within? This is rhetorical and I do not expect an answer merely to promote discussion and thought. Whilst we shoot other birds for pleasure (and I have seen catastriphic waste of bird kill buried in the ground after a shoot because no one wanted to take them home) and keep some to fly and contain and call our own we seem to forget that we are all part of a free ecological cycle. The planet rebells in its own way (freak weather events, turbulent land masses causing natural disasters) and will cull the human population to an acceptable level over time to 'balance' nature once again. That has got you thinking eh?! In the meantime as the scientists get to the bottom of our Buzzard scenraio my own experiences of Buzzards have been worming, taking small rabbits, enjoying carrion and bothering murders of crows. If they look for an easy lunch then I say 'good luck' because we humans do too - I'm off to enjoy a free one myself tomorrow!! Enjoy the debate......I will.