afghanistan

[LancsMike]

Fair play to them both for being able to do Gibbon and not get into trouble, but I've heard the same reasoning about ''respecting other cultures and you'll be alright'' from my Aunt who is out in Somalia at the moment doing Consultancy and Aidwork, when she was heading back for my Grandfathers funeral a few years back on the phone you could hear Mortar Shells hitting close to her Compound with the odd crack of Gunshots and she's a full on Hippy who has lived out in China and Vietnam embracing new cultures.

 

It'd be nice if we did live in a world where everyone was rational, reasonable and didn't feel a need to pick up a Rifle or use Bomb's but it just isn't the case, but I think we are working towards a more peaceful and better world albeit slowly.

[MattyF]

Lancstree I don't recal ever slagging are boys off I think they do a great job of rebuilding community's its just a shame when the yanks come in after and bulldoze them so they can get a clean line of fire.

I'm not anti are troops i have massive respect for them , family and friends have been there and although it's not all good in a lot of ways but they signed up for it I'm almost jealous I didn't as it looks a beautiful country and a hell of an experience ... , I just don't think we had any good reason in being there in the first place... There is more to it than the force fed hype we where given to believe...

Sorry if that offends you but that really pissed me off to think I'm coming across anti are boys.... I could go on and on as I think I have to much emotion on this subject of what certain things have been done wrong to are reasons in being there ... but f it I'm out of here and off this thread ...

[PhilBeech]

It's not just the Western troop deaths you have to take into account. Every idiot with military service rushed to Afghan in the early days to work as civilian security contractors on .gov projects. These guys and girls were ill prepared and not properly supported. Many have been killed.

 

There is no formal procedure for reporting 'civillian' deaths in Afghanistan so those 400 troops could quiet easily be 1500 or more.

 

Thankfully things are slowly improving and the greedy security groups have fallen by the way side.

[Andy Collins]

Let us not forget, they are defending their homes, their families,their cultures, we are the invaders to be repelled (in their opinion). Let us turn this scenario around for just a minute, and be the invaded, the under dogs. How would we react. Though guerrilla tactics of course, using hidden underground forces to sneak up and attack the enemy. Disguising bombs as normal every day objects to catch the unwary. "Keep Calm and Carry On" is not some trendy modern marketing gimmick, but originated from the days when Nazis threatened to invade, and the populace was urged to carry on as normal and let our guerrillas attack the enemy. Thankfully this need did not arise, but it shows that terrorism or freedom fighting or how ever you wish to dress it up is nothing new, and that we are just as capable of "atrocities" as afghans or iraqis.. In fact, didnt we teach the mujaheddin how to build IEDs when they were dealing with the Russians? Didn't our closest allies supply the weapons? Oh and these aren't just a group of chancres randomly attacking, but highly proficient and skilled, using unexploded bombs to build into IEDs to use against our forces.

[LancsMike]

Matty, by failing to mention what the Taliban are doing and a couple of times speaking about our Forces or the cock ups they have made, it paints a bit of a negative slant on NATO as a whole by not mentioning the horrendous things the Taliban and other groups have and continue to do - but fair enough if you do respect those who are out there doing their bit, thats your call either way all I point out to folk is to look at the big picture.

 

Andy, I can see your point but there is a fundamental difference in what we would deem '' acceptable '' compared to what the Taliban and the Insurgents have done and continue to do out there - We don't use kids as weapons or as said in an earlier example, maim a bunch of them knowing out of decency we'd Medevac them.

 

Plus the example with the Nazi's isn't really comparable - we moved into Afghanistan due to international security threats, the Nazi's were looking for Lebensraum as Hitler coined it. We became involved in Afghanistan and are acting as a Peacekeeping force, the Taliban via their madrassa's are spinning it that we are invaders and probably even have the old crusader's story told to kids but you and I both know it's a complete and utter lie, we are trying to give future generations there a chance at a normal, decent life something which the Taliban don't want them to have. The Nazi's didnt offer us a decent way of life, more living in constant fear under a totalitarian state and put into a concentration camp if you stepped out of line. Not to mention Military tactics would be applied through Guerilla mean's if we fought the Nazi's; whereas what the Taliban and the Insurgents do is beyond barbarism, it's vile. The Beslan School Siege showed us what Al Qaeda and Islamic Extremism is capable of and that wasn't Guerilla warfare.

[David Humphries]

I really don't have enough info to come off from the fence on this issue.

 

But I can't help but remember a very brief look at a small presentation board (tucked away far from the highlighted bits of the main display) at a recent trip into RAF Duxford.

 

It was generally refering to some historical East Anglian regimental tours.

 

Check out the date of the below piece of media.

 

"The destruction of the British garrison prompted brutal retaliation by the British against the Afghans and touched off yet another power struggle among potential rulers of Afghanistan. In the fall of 1842 British forces from Qandahar and Peshawar entered Kabul long enough to rescue the British prisoners and burn the great bazaar. All that remained of the British occupation of Afghanistan was a ruined market and thousands of dead (one estimate puts the total killed at 20,000). Although the foreign invasion did give the Afghan tribes a temporary sense of unity they had lacked before, the accompanying loss of life (one estimate puts the total killed at 25,000) and property was followed by a bitterness and resentment of foreign influence that lasted well into the twentieth century and may have accounted for much of the backlash against the modernization attempts of later Afghan monarchs"

 

 

 

De ja vue ?

 

 

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[Lee Winger]

Bang on there lee.

 

2 of my mates hitched.and.trecked across afgan 4 years ago. They had no trouble at all and the landscape there looks amazing. He said the same thing, "not my war, so why not go see it".

 

I've only ever found Afghanis and Iranians [yes I've met a few of each] to show the height of hospitality, friendliness and politeness. I'm a nationalist and believe in keeping my nose out of other country's political business.

 

TBH I have very little sympathy for any service person who ends up in Afghanistan, you know what you letting yourself in for when you sign up, and before anyone says it, they aren't fighting for my future!

[easy-lift guy]

Thanks Gibbon, perhaps they blended in so well with the native population no one knew who or where they were from.

easy-lift guy

[Andy Collins]

[quote=LancsMike;653761

 

Andy, I can see your point but there is a fundamental difference in what we would deem '' acceptable '' compared to what the Taliban and the Insurgents have done and continue to do out there - We don't use kids as weapons or as said in an earlier example, maim a bunch of them knowing out of decency we'd Medevac which the Taliban don't want them to have.

 

We don't know (thankfully) to what depths of human depravity we would have sunk to, we are not holier than thou, we are not whiter than White, we've done our share of wrongs in our history too. Of course, now we wish to police the rest of the world and tell them how they should run things to suit us, we have to paint a brighter picture. Militarily we are in these theatres to justify the existence of our armed forces, to test and train and maintain a standard, to ensure we are at the peak of performance for every eventuality, and this statement was made by a top military official on the radio yesterday, or cutbacks will remove our capabilities altogether. A senior politician has also stated that in the event of Argentina invading the Falkland Isles, we would not be in a position to repel them. So to say that we are protecting the Afghan people isn't strictly true, it may be a by product, but I doubt many politicians really care about some tribesmen halfway around the world.

[LancsMike]

I've only ever found Afghanis and Iranians [yes I've met a few of each] to show the height of hospitality, friendliness and politeness. I'm a nationalist and believe in keeping my nose out of other country's political business.

 

TBH I have very little sympathy for any service person who ends up in Afghanistan, you know what you letting yourself in for when you sign up, and before anyone says it, they aren't fighting for my future!

 

You're speaking of the normal, decent people which is fair enough - this thread has been speaking on the ones who don't see reason and would rather use violence to get what they want via coercion on others, to sit and ignore that and only talk of the good ones is sticking your head in the sand and leaving the problem to be dealt with by someone else which is fine, because I have no problem doing that as I am enlisting and start in June along with family members who are already serving and ones who have served in the past. It's your right to disagree paid for by others, as much as you might not like that truth.

 

@Andy, what that Leading Commander said is true to him, but it's just his opinion to be fair even though I can see what he's saying as accurate. I doubt most Politicians do give a damn about a Tribesman out in Helmand thinks or does but their job is Civilian Government, the PM and the Queen decided a job needed to be done so the Military acted on that request and are performing the job to the best of their abilities. I think it's a bit disrespectful to paint that type of picture because it's making out the sacrifices that have been made so far towards Security have been in vain but if thats your true belief, fair enough though I disagree strongly.

 

As for the Falklands, same can be said of any Military scenario wherein an Invasion occurs, 99/100 you're not going to be totally prepared unless you act on Conscription and have the Army prepared to fight however we do have quite a substantial base on the Falklands and I doubt they are really going to broadcast all their capabilities, as well as Dauntless has set sail for the Falklands.