Pagans on arbtalk

[Sam Thompson]

thats what religion should be about.

 

and one finds it in such places.

 

I agree. Find your own happiness I reckon. Funny thing about that island. I didn't take any pictures. The whole reason I canoed to it (that time, I try and go back as often as possible) was to take some silly arty pictures of the old graveyard (Christian) and the church. I got there, and it just felt completely wrong. It is my place (to me) and I don't share it. Funny how your brain works. I was talking to a very good freind (another canoe camper) last year time about it, and he told me a story about going paddling and wild camping on Loch Awe with his then 7 year old nephew. They stopped on the island and started to unpack, his nephew went off to explore and walked back about 5 minutes later and said "We shouldn't sleep here, it's not right". This was dismissed as rubbish (as adults do) but he made enough fuss that they went back to the car and slept in that instead. it turns out there used to be a graveyard on there (lots of graveyards on islands!). It makes me wonder.

[alex_m]

Good post Sam. I get a feeling that i do not get anywhere else, when i'm in the west country/cornwall, amongst some of the ancient monuments (Men-An-Tol, Avebury etc). a sense of belonging perhaps.

[born2trot]

Nice post Sam .. and good reply Hama.

I agree with corylus though the guy seems a bit of a fruitcake ... ' Pre Celtic religion of the neolithic ' !!! His argument was lost straight away with me . Theres a picture of a celtic symbol beside what looks like a modern picture of a greek god ?? I'm almost going back to the christian thread

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Nice post Sam .. and good reply Hama.

I agree with corylus though the guy seems a bit of a fruitcake ... ' Pre Celtic religion of the neolithic ' !!! His argument was lost straight away with me . Theres a picture of a celtic symbol beside what looks like a modern picture of a greek god ?? I'm almost going back to the christian thread

 

[tommer9]

This is a much more iuinteresting thread than Butlers. (no offence Butler). In so far as it is knid of obvious to me. The pagans used the true cycles of nature, the seasons and equinoxes, which are undeniable the truth. Heck- even christians celebrate the likes of harvest festival etc. Given that christianity only ever developed as a form of power, both social and financial, in order to attract (or whatever alternative you care to use) pagans, the christians had to follow fairly closely the pagan festivals- christmas near to the shortest day/ the TRUE new year etc etc. Had they not done this then NO credibility could have been attributed to the new ideas.

 

"Climb the mountains, and get their good things" - J. Muir.

 

"And I looked unto the high places, from whence cometh my strength" - The Bible.

 

Sam- your quote is evidence of this IMO- those that preached God and other such new ideas knew that they couldnt stray fromthe truth too much or their new versions of the truth would not ever have a hope of taking hold, and the social structures and oredr that they so strived for would have failed from the start.

 

Of course the ancient monuments feel 'right'. They are homages to/ reflections of nature, the true cycle, none of this engineered social control and tax collecting rubbish that became the myriad of modern religions. At least the pagans had real dates to adhere to, as opposed to the mumbo jumbo of christianity etc which relies on engineered belief and stories to keep the masses paying their tithes and obeying whichever branch of religion was en-vogue/ enforced at that time.

 

The easter story- new life etc etc can be said to reflect the beginnning of new life after winter as pre christians see it.

The birth of Christ being in the winter (4 days after the winter equinox) can be seen as a version of the new year ( the start of lengthening days after december 21st).

 

The answers are all there to see.

[MattyF]

 

Of course the ancient monuments feel 'right'. They are homages to/ reflections of nature, the true cycle, none of this engineered social control and tax collecting rubbish that became the myriad of modern religions. At least the pagans had real dates to adhere to, as opposed to the mumbo jumbo of christianity etc which relies on engineered belief and stories to keep the masses paying their tithes and obeying whichever branch of religion was en-vogue/ enforced at that

 

The answers are all there to see.

 

Hmmm but no one really knows how or definitely why places like stone henge were built... How do you know they were not built using forced or slave labour or from tax's... I certainly would not want to stop tending my crops to make a stone or wooden henge with the most basic of tools.

[tommer9]

I totally agree Matty. How they were built is totally in question, and I strongly suspect you are correct. I would imagine the enforcement was more violent than through taxation even!! My point (made late last night in a bout of insomnia and after some beer (ahem lol) was more that pre christain religions were probably more in tune with the cycles of nature and realism than christianity et al, the belief in nature as opposped to an imaginary benevolent God/ Lord of all who actually isnt that benevolent at all- there are so many examples of this in the bible. I mean that in itself seems to me o be another reflection on the harshness of reality- nature isnt a totlly benevolent 'God' either- there are times of famine and plenty in nature as much as the parallels tat are love and punishment from God if you see what I mean. At the end of the day a belief in a higher force is all part of a quest to find out WHY we are here and why existence and evolution is what it is. I think that if you are happy to believe that we just 'are' then it is possible to see why there is not the slightest shred of real Truth in the whole bible story. And for me this is fine- it is a system of belief to help allay the fears of human insecurities.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Hmmm but no one really knows how or definitely why places like stone henge were built... How do you know they were not built using forced or slave labour or from tax's... I certainly would not want to stop tending my crops to make a stone or wooden henge with the most basic of tools.

 

 

you would if you thought that paying homage to the powers of nature would ensure a good harvest, you wouldnt want to waste your time with the plough and tilling to find you had nothing to show for it because the powers that be had not been properly acknowledged.

[MattyF]

you would if you thought that paying homage to the powers of nature would ensure a good harvest, you wouldnt want to waste your time with the plough and tilling to find you had nothing to show for it because the powers that be had not been properly acknowledged.

 

Maybe but I feel the Druid leaders may just like the Christian ones would of imposed the same fears of failure due to not worshiping there gods.

The church is just evolution of the same fears imposed by a few leaders who make the rules, paganism to me is just a romantic notion... I'm in awe of ancient monuments as I'm in awe of amazing cathedrals and church's but they are still built on the same principles.. You don't need society rule and a monument to worship your god who ever it may be.

I find nature beautiful but I'm not going to worship a tree or river!!

[alex_m]

you would if you thought that paying homage to the powers of nature would ensure a good harvest, you wouldnt want to waste your time with the plough and tilling to find you had nothing to show for it because the powers that be had not been properly acknowledged.

 

I've been to a few 'Wassails' (traditional ceremony that involves singing and drinking the health of trees in the hopes that they might better thrive. The purpose of wassailing is to awake the cider apple trees and to scare away evil spirits to ensure a good harvest of fruit in the Autumn.) at a cider farm in somerset. A good knees up with cider, cheese and folk music.

I also get together with friends to celebrate the winter and summer solstice and beltane (if anything a good excuse to see friends, drink good drink and eat good food)

I sound like a right alcy now!