site -specific risk assessment a few questions.

[likeitorlumpit]

sorry

off topic

but

kind of related

[felixthelogchopper]

just had a recent experience with them calling us about 7 times- not taking no for an answer

Truth is there must be some out there who collude with them and force all our premiums up

And then we complain that our premiums are too high

Vicious circle

Bad makes bad

 

When they ring me, i get the supervisor straight away, get their name and tell them to take my number of their call list. I also tell them that any subsequent calls get referred to my solicitor for harassment proceedings. They don't call back

[Rupe]

So if there no AR man for climbing do i write this down on a risk assessment and refuse the work?

 

Well this is up to you. Are you the climber?

 

If you want to keep your job then I would get on with it. If the HSE guy turns up then you could be in trouble but ultimalty he would only stop the work and then your boss is ultimatly in trouble.

 

You need to decide if your job and your safety is worth the risk. Whatever the "laws" maybe, there is a vast number of companies out there who do not fulfill their duty of care. This will always be the case, but if you are on a big enough contract that an HSE has paid attention (was it actuall HSE or just a site safety supervisor) then IMO it would best if you (the company you are working for) get thrown off site, and they get someone better in.

 

Of course that just means you (again, I mean the company you work for) just go and work elsewhere and the problem is not necessarily solved.

[ms660isthebest]

Thats up to you.

 

On your RA you are going to struggle to provide suitable mitigation for the risks the climber is facing without a AR climber.

 

If i had a bad accident is it my fault because i shudnt have done the work and the AR climber could of reduced how serious the accident. or the company who have AR climbers but put them on a different site

[Leyburn Lad]

An Accident

Short term and long term affects

 

Date 4th of July 1980, time approximately 12pm that is the time when Alan Smith had a life changing experience. Set off to work on a clear fell site on a local estate in North Yorkshire, the day been no different to any other whilst they had been working on the site. Arrived on site at about 8am with two other contractors, general chat on every day things and previous days work, fuelled saws, picked out there area of work for the day and set off on there way into the wood for a days felling.

The site was predominantly mature ash which was been cleared in some areas and thinned out in others depending on clients needs. It was for the majority of the time on a very steep bank leading to a small stream in the bottom of the woodland, access was from the hill top which in turn was about ¼ of a mile from a farm, the only access at the time was from the farm to the wood across several grassed fields.

The trees on the steepest part of the slope were been felled and left in an uncut state to be winched out at a later time in the week, they had looked at this as been the safest option due to the severity of the slope to the stream and the size of timber. The average age of staff on site was 36 years old and all had a good 10years experience of dealing with these types of sites on a daily basis.

At around 11.30am Alan started to fell some of the larger ash trees on the steep slope ready for extraction later on, whilst carrying what had generally always been a basic practice in felling trees, the tree he was working on Barber Chaired (trunk Split up the centre) this in turn caught him just below the rib cage and launched him upwards for approximately 10ft, on landing his legs became partially folded up his back and his right arm twisted violently out of its socket.

The guy nearest to where he was working witnessed the whole incident and went to his aid, on realising the severity of the situation he then summonsed the other cutter over, now the drama of what had just happened kicked in, they had 18stone of man on a hill side in a critical condition and not the slightest idea how or what they could do. The second man took off across the field to raise the alarm at the farm ¼ of a mile away, on arrival at the farm there was no answer, he then made his way down to some farm workers cottages, and another ½ mile down the road where he finally managed to summons some emergency services.

Ambulance arrived at the farm, and the next problem arises, how to get an LDV ambulance across a wet field. They had no option but to go back in the works truck that the chap had taken when going for assistance and use this to ferry Alan back to the ambulance. All the time this is going on the casualty has now slipped into shock with the injuries and pain and is heading towards, drifting into a coma.

Once the casualty is loaded into the ambulance the nearest A&E is 30 miles away, the rescue crew decide that there only option now, for any chance of survival, is to try and get to the local army hospital in the near by army camp approximately 5miles away, this is instantly agreed by the army on route.

On arrival at hospital Alan has now gone into a coma, two punctured lungs are causing massive problems for the

Airways along with severe internal bruising and multi broken ribs plus the potential of head injuries.

 

At about 3.30pm I was as per usual awaiting a lift from my Father home from school, he was always a bit later than he said, that was one of his traits, so when Peter one of his work staff pulled up that was no surprise, usually meant he was finishing a site some where. Peter told me he was running me and my brother down to the local hospital where my Mother was waiting with my younger sister, he explained Father had a bit of a bump with a tree and they had taken him into hospital.

On arrival we were met by my Fathers Brother who took us of to a small side room on the intensive care ward, several minutes later my Mother arrived with a Doctor. To say she looked white was an understatement, I will never forget that look for the rest of my life, we were all sat down and the doctor explained the injuries and possibilities of my Fathers survival from the injuries incurred from the accident, basically the next 24hrs would be make or brake really and even if that was overcome the survival chances were slim with a strong possibility of severe brain damage and disablement.

He stayed in a coma for another 4 months, on coming out of the coma he then picked up a flu virus due to his immune system been shot to bits, this resulted in him been rushed back to intensive care and having traxomitry carried out on his throat to aid his breathing (A pipe is inserted through the windpipe to aid the breathing due to swelling of the throat). With in twelve months he started to walk with the aid of a stick for short distances, his left arm became fully functional but the right arm which had been torn out of its socket became a lifeless limb that never functioned again. The internal injuries would shorten his life expectancy due to the trauma they had received. Depression then became the next obstacle to overcome, this entailed not sleeping, flashbacks to the accident, dreaming of a fully functioning body and waking to find your right arm is still paralysed. This took hold for over a year and came and went for the rest of his life.

 

When something like this happens, you some how, after a time accept it and carry on, the two guys he worked with left the industry and moved away to different parts of the country, Father started up a small tree company again for which I worked along with my brother, this finished after a couple of years due to his worsening health and he finally passed away in 1998.

 

Been the oldest of the family I had the main role of organising the Funeral along with my brother, I phoned around all his old friends past and present and the two guys who had been with him that day in the wood, and this is when it hits home, how long does an accident affect people involved ?

 

The Bearers were arranged, all from his forestry days, most supporting some sort of old scar from there days in the woods, going from a leg missing down to a thumb missing. Working in forestry in the late sixties through to the late seventies, if you spent an average of 20yrs on the tools on average you would have three major accidents (sourced from the Timber Trades Journal 1979 found when clearing out the old saw shed at my Mothers).

 

The last two people to contact were the two staff on site the day of the accident, after a few phone calls they were traced to Nottingham and Doncaster. I managed to contact the older of the two who informed me that he was still in contact with the other man on a regular basis. He agreed he would get in touch with him and phone back, several hours later and I received a call that brings home the devastation an accident causes not just to the casualty but to all those involved. They sent there condolences, but still could not forget the trauma of that day in 1980, they still felt at fault for the accident and dealing with the incident itself. There was no more they could of done on the day, but as they kept saying did they miss something, should they have left the work and gone about it another way, whose to know but these guys carry that emotional scarring around with them all the time.

 

 

Break down of the accident

 

So what went wrong on site, what was missing on site and what should have been there on site?

 

• No risk assessment ( never heard of, another 20 yrs before they would be common practice in small arb firms)

• No Method statement

• No emergency action plan or site brief on the morning of work ( worked together for years, Complacency)

• No first aid kit, just the usual bottle of water for dust in eyes and a few plasters for file cuts when sharpening saws

• No PPE worn, again small companies did not use it and what was on the market was next to useless to work in.

• No first aider on site

• No work instruction

 

 

 

2012

 

• NPTC, AFAG, HSE, Arboriculture Association and LANTRA are all there now, giving relevant training, guidance and rules to aid us towards a safer work place.

 

 

• No excuse for having no risk assessment or emergency action plan on site, a team brief now should be second nature to a team leader to give out and no team member should start work with out a site brief.

 

 

• PPE in the last ten years far out exceeds anything from the past and only gets better as we move on, it is light comfy and useable in all types of tree work.

 

 

• No site would start work with out having a basic team first aid kit on site and at least one first aider if not multi first aiders on site.

 

 

• The equipment and procedures in place together with modern training in today’s work place should eliminate any potential of accidents on site.

 

 

And finally does an accident affect you forever, whether the injured party or not?

 

YES

 

• Daughter married in 1999, no father to give her away.

 

• First grandchild 2001, minus one Grandfather.

 

• Mothers 60th, celebrated as a widow.

 

• Still haunted by that hospital side room 4th July 1980.

 

 

• Married my wife in 2001, spare place at the top table.

 

• Grow up fast and learn to chuck a good right hander, end of the day your dads a Cripple.

 

 

 

Your mistake on site doesn’t just affect you on site, it affects your team, your family your friends if it all goes wrong!

 

Not sure or unsure of your task

Then leave it and ask

 

This is given out on all my Training courses.

A risk assessment is a legal document regardless of size of outfit.

A site specific risk assesment should have an emerancy action plan.

Sorry if the above shocks some people but I am the 11yr old above.

[likeitorlumpit]

When they ring me, i get the supervisor straight away, get their name and tell them to take my number of their call list. I also tell them that any subsequent calls get referred to my solicitor for harassment proceedings. They don't call back

 

I'll do that next time

But I think it's different companies every time

I Know it's not exactly what the OP was on about and I will explain.

Mainly I feel it's (no win)the reason we all have this risk assessment mentality forced upon us now.

Without no win no fee we wouldn't have the stress of justifying what we do

Once upon a time (maybe 10 years ago)we just got on with it

And this H&S mentality wouldn't be giving us these headaches/costs.

I'm just emphasising the reasons why this crap happens on site. - to prevent the firm getting into a court situation

Whenever I hear about risk assessment my blood starts to boil. I hasten to add I meekly comply though which is even more annoying

[A Townsend]

hi,

like all of these things, its alright until something goes wrong . . . . some where along the line you've got to decide what to do for the best. For me its the law to have an AR man so i abide by it. Also id always hope that person i am working for has got my interests and safety (along with all the other employees) at the core of what they do. Not having suitable kit or a rescue man to me is a sign of slopey shoulders and an operation i wouldnt want to be part of. As for risk assessment, we treat it as a legal hurdle to fill in or tick before getting everyone to sign and leave in the truck. the true key to it is communication and people taking a few minutes to talk things through before starting work. i do understand the pressures involved with job security etc

 

cheers,

andrew

[ms660isthebest]

Well this is up to you. Are you the climber?

 

If you want to keep your job then I would get on with it. If the HSE guy turns up then you could be in trouble but ultimalty he would only stop the work and then your boss is ultimatly in trouble.

 

You need to decide if your job and your safety is worth the risk. Whatever the "laws" maybe, there is a vast number of companies out there who do not fulfill their duty of care. This will always be the case, but if you are on a big enough contract that an HSE has paid attention (was it actuall HSE or just a site safety supervisor) then IMO it would best if you (the company you are working for) get thrown off site, and they get someone better in.

 

Of course that just means you (again, I mean the company you work for) just go and work elsewhere and the problem is not necessarily solved.

 

Yes it was a site safety supervisor. New boy so he was on it:001_smile:. I think you have hit the nail on the head with vast number of companies who don t fulfill their duty of care. Its all about profit! Sadly! What would happen to the boss?

[likeitorlumpit]

Obviously the above post makes me feel saddened

I need to start enforcing RA rigorously not to prevent insurance claims but to prevent accidents.

Point taken

[Rupe]

If i had a bad accident is it my fault because i shudnt have done the work and the AR climber could of reduced how serious the accident. or the company who have AR climbers but put them on a different site

 

Its wont be your fault, you will be the injured party and the fault would be with your "negligent" employer.

 

Are you worried about having a bad accident or more worried about it being your fault if you did? If you only have one are and are actually dead, does it matter whos fault it is???