Own Up!?!

[Dean Lofthouse]

 

Theres always hope, apparently.

 

It's all in the up bringing

[Taupotreeman]

Thats exactly where the problem lies. I am not even nearly rich enough to say no but i would rather say no and walk away knowing i did the right thing. I am old enough now to realise that my principles are more important to me than money.

 

I see this argument come up often on this topic and my reply is usually the same. Although the idea of being able to walk away from some jobs because you don't wish to "butcher" them or your principles dictate otherwise,is nice, it doesn't work for all. There comes a time when you HAVE to put food on the table and you HAVE to pay the mortgage and I'm afraid for the sake of butchering a tree I'd prefer to make sure the former were first in line. I have turned down jobs that meant the tree was going to take a hammering but only when I was in a position to be able to afford to. Most of the time money is the factor and I need to eat and I need to look after my family. I hate being told I have no principles because I'll top a tree. I have principles but they revolve around family and mortgage security first and foremost. NZ is slightly different to the UK in the fact that people want their views and if I don't hammer the trees someone else most definately will ( I speak from experience) seeing as there is minimal protection on them. I always aspire to do the most professional job that I can as do the other contractors around here but all have learnt that the customer wants what the customer wants. Maybe 10% here you can talk in to trimming a tree properly but the remainder? Fat chance. So what are you going to do? Stick to your principles and run out of work, end up subbing to a contractor and still doing the job you refused to do originally but for less money just to put food on the table? Go look for another job mowing lawns or doing stop go or working in a super market? How long exactly DO you stick to your principles when the work starts to run out? And what do you tell the bank manager and your wife when the debts rise? Oh, I'm sorry but I still refuse to do what the customer wants because it's soooo bad for the tree.

[Scott Farmborough]

It's all very well having priciples..but only if you can afford ££ to have them.

[David Goss]

NZ is slightly different to the UK in the fact that people want their views and if I don't hammer the trees someone else most definately will

 

Its exactly the same here mate. I do see your point but like Dean has shown its all a matter of starting off slow and doing what is right. After a while you get such a good name for yourself that your phone will be ringing constantly. I started my own business in Rome and after 3 years things were starting to pick up through word of mouth alone, and believe me i was poor and still managed to say no to bad practice. Unfortunately i moved country again and decided to just go freelance because i dont want to go through it all again. So i can understand where you are coming from but if you stick with it then eventually it all comes together and your principles and bank balance will remain intact. Do what you will but i know which way i prefer.

 

Originally Posted by Mesterh

I still cannot fathom though why people think a bit of topping is the devils work and a disgrace but will then quite happily fell a nice and healthy tree!

 

I see your point here as well Mesterh but the difference is when you are felling a tree its usually because there is going to be something built in its place or something similar (from my experience anyway). Topping i see as being "the devils work" as you put it because you are making something beautiful into a gnarled hunk of rotting wood that will probably look nice again. But that nice looking ex hunk of wood is now full of rot and and way more likely to fail and kill some passer by all because someone decided it was better to get the money and do what the customer blindly wanted.

The felled tree is no longer there but the topped tree still has a very unstable future. Thats my take on it anyway:001_rolleyes:

[Taupotreeman]

Unfortunately David it hasn't quite worked here yet. One of the arb outfits set up here back in 2003 and tried to educate the public on how to trim trees correctly. Eventually they had to bow to customer demand and do what was asked not what they wanted. too many other outfits prepared to do what the customer wants and not argue. It's difficult to explain but when local council approves random topping of trees all around the district it doesn't help.

 

I eventually had to take a job with the council because there was not enough work to keep me going (along with other reasons). There are plenty of other outfits prepared to charge less for either a sub standard job or one that I wouldn't be happy with. You just have to understand that in some places price is king NOT the fact that the tree has been pruned properly and sympathetically. The public in general don't always want to be "educated" and can get quite offended if you try to tell them how to prune. And yes, many of my repeat clients were extremely happy with the job but still ended up going elsewhere because I couldn't compete with the prices of others. You also have to remember that people here want their lake and mountain views so will not accept a tree being thinned or lifted etc. It gets topped and the cheapest job will do.

 

And yes, I was on the bones of my backside and at the stage where I could no longer afford to wait it out. I'm not in the position to call the bluff of the bank manager and neither am I willing to make my wife suffer just to maintain my principles.

[Mesterh]

 

Originally Posted by Mesterh

I still cannot fathom though why people think a bit of topping is the devils work and a disgrace but will then quite happily fell a nice and healthy tree!

 

I see your point here as well Mesterh but the difference is when you are felling a tree its usually because there is going to be something built in its place or something similar (from my experience anyway). Topping i see as being "the devils work" as you put it because you are making something beautiful into a gnarled hunk of rotting wood that will probably look nice again. But that nice looking ex hunk of wood is now full of rot and and way more likely to fail and kill some passer by all because someone decided it was better to get the money and do what the customer blindly wanted.

The felled tree is no longer there but the topped tree still has a very unstable future. Thats my take on it anyway:001_rolleyes:

 

Fair enough, I suppose our different experiences shape our decisions. With mine, (most of my work is domestic) most healthy trees I remove are removed simply for light or leaf reasons. Any trees I top are usually for the exact same reason but the customer still wants to keep the tree and a thin or reduction etc won't fit the bill.

 

I understand what you mean about rot and killing someone etc but in reality it hardly ever happens and ime the majority of trees I've seen fail have usually not been pollarded topped etc.

 

In fact I am struggling to think of any failures i have witnessed from topped unions etc. Well unless you count leylandiis that have been hedged then left for many years, they seem to do a good job of splitting out.

 

Not saying your wrong and I'm right but ime it's not a problem that I've came across. Plus alot of really old pollards/toppings look really good good IMO.

[David Goss]

All understandable stuff guys and its a difficult situation i know. We all just have to do what we each think is best.

I have seen many topped trees break out large sections of crown in high winds because there just wasnt enough holding wood left but i have also seen many healthy trees fail from included bark compression forks and the like. Part of our job is also VTA and catching these problems before they do damage. As for topping i prefer not to be the one inflicting the damage so i say no and will continue to do so.

I hope we can all have some kind of policed standard in the future that we can all refer to the customer to show that we are doing what is best. Here in Edinburgh there is lots of conservation areas in the city and you need permission from the council to do most jobs. Unfortunately there is always people who dont care and do the jobs they want with or without the permission so you see a lot of bad work around still.

Anyway i think i have flogged this thread to death so most important of all stay safe and remember zamo or whatever he was called from grange hill.... just say no

maybe i am showing my age now....

[Taupotreeman]

All understandable stuff guys and its a difficult situation i know. We all just have to do what we each think is best.

I have seen many topped trees break out large sections of crown in high winds because there just wasnt enough holding wood left but i have also seen many healthy trees fail from included bark compression forks and the like. Part of our job is also VTA and catching these problems before they do damage. As for topping i prefer not to be the one inflicting the damage so i say no and will continue to do so.

I hope we can all have some kind of policed standard in the future that we can all refer to the customer to show that we are doing what is best. Here in Edinburgh there is lots of conservation areas in the city and you need permission from the council to do most jobs. Unfortunately there is always people who dont care and do the jobs they want with or without the permission so you see a lot of bad work around still.

Anyway i think i have flogged this thread to death so most important of all stay safe and remember zamo or whatever he was called from grange hill.... just say no

maybe i am showing my age now....

 

Hells bells, if you can remember Zamo you're older than I thought

[WoodED]

How can you knock them then talk about monoliths and fracture pruning

If they had CORONETS cut in them you would of all been going spot on.

I dont blame the tree guys or galls or the carpet folk it is down to the planners.

Of course the carpet firm want folk passing to see they are there and they do free fitting.

Sadly it will be a miniscule amount of folk that think there wrong.

Personally I would prefer them out but next yr they will look fine

 

Is it better a butchered tree than NO tree???????

enjoy:thumbup:

 

theres no excuse for shoddy work,

[Dean Lofthouse]

There comes a time when you HAVE to put food on the table and you HAVE to pay the mortgage and I'm afraid for the sake of butchering a tree I'd prefer to make sure the former were first in line..

 

Even if that means putting the public in danger ?

 

Topped trees can create a future hazard, but hey ho, doesn't matter is someone dies in 10 years time, they'll have forgotton who did the job by then, as long as my mortgage is paid.

 

If it come to lowering my standards to such an extent, then I'll get out of tree work. It's quite simple really.

 

Why do you have to resort to using such low standards. If you are that bothered, buy a mower and cut grass or clean windows or numerous other unskilled jobs that you can set up as.