Buying woodland

[john k]

Hi, I've been lurking here for a while and found lots of interesting reading. I'm not an arb, but am interested in conservation and woodland management. I have no practical experience, but am learning fast and looking at ways to get my hands dirty.

 

Like lots of people I've been dreaming about buying some woodland for years. I've looked at quite a few, but never found the right deal at the right time. I've missed out on a couple of good ones though!

 

It looks like I may be in a better position to buy something soon, and have started looking a bit more seriously. The woodland needs to be in the south east, so I know that my money won't go as far as it might. It's not going to be a hard nosed "Dragons Den" type of investment, but I do want to make sure that it will support some sort of productive use - I'm not planning on making a living from it, but I'd like it to be a worthwhile part time job.

 

The plan, such as it is, would be to do a mixture of things depending on what suits. Probably some coppice products, maybe firewood, possibly some charcoal, and maybe an acre or two of Christmas trees.

 

What is the minimum size that would be worth considering? I was reckoning that less than ten acres probably wouldn't really be worthwhile, and that twenty would be better, with anything more an unlikely bonus. Does that sound about right?

 

The other hurdle is obviously finding somewhere to buy. I could probably afford a small woodland from "Woodlands for sale", but from what I have seen it would be too small, with relatively poor access, have restrictive covenants, and all at a premium price. So I probably need to be more creative.

 

With the potential sale of Forestry Commission property somewhere on the horizon maybe it's best to see what happens. There could be an opportunity to buy direct, or if not then there might be more woodland on the market. Does anyone have any idea how this might pan out?

[richy_B]

Decent size woodlands in the southeast are expensive. I've been looking for years for a good opportunity as can only echo what you have mentioned.

 

I've looked at a few of that size in Kent in the last 2 months and price/size wise for 15-20 acres was between £65,000 and £110,000 guideprice. Several sold for more than the asking. Even at a relatively small size a lot of the woodlands have public rights of way across them which I found a bit off putting. In regards what you intend to do with the land you probably need to narrow it slightly. Coppice work, charcoal burning, firwood suits the more mature or overstood woodlands but would make growing christmas trees in any kind of density impossible. Its hard to find a site offering both.

 

You should consider leisure uses for the woodland as well as a means of get some sort of contribution into the running costs. All sorts of rules and regulations but there is the possibility of using the woodland as an educational site (which attracts grants etc), camping or 'wilderness camping', rent sections as a training site (arb/agriculture), paintball or offroading (although pretty saturated markets), etc, etc. Lots of hoops to jump through but worth investigating.

 

On a less encouraging note I feel that you might be able to find a hobby that contributes towards its own costs but you're unlikely to make much in the ways of profit.

[john k]

Thanks. That's pretty much what I was guessing.

 

Have you been actively looking, or just keeping an eye on what companies like Clegg & Co have been listing?

Edited January 27, 2011 by john k

[John Russell]

Thanks. That's pretty much what I was guessing.

 

Have you been actively looking, or just keeping an eye on what companies like Clegg & Co have been listing?

 

I'm still trying to decide whether the government sell-off (if it happens) will make woodland cheaper to buy, or more expensive because it attracts more people into the market. A few years back I bought several woodlands at less than the guide price; today, similar sized woodlands are fetching quite a bit more than the GP.

 

Just offered about 3% over the GP on 58 acres of mainly 30-year-old conifers and was too low -- it went for about 10% over -- which I think shows there is a demand at the moment. I'd be careful of buying small areas, it's usually priced very high -- particularly if near centres of habitation 30 acres plus is best value: I think we all know 'Woodland for Sale's' tactics.

 

Can't help much about how much woodland you need to make a living -- even part time. I think it would be hard, though (as I'm sure you know), satisfying.

 

I know a chap who sold his house and put the proceeds and his pension fund into buying woodland. He started buying in around 2000 and now owns around 300 acres from which he makes a living + doing tree-surgery jobs for people. But he lives in a caravan in a wood and drives a beat-up old Land Rover. He's probably sitting on £1m worth of woodland now, but nobody thinks he's a rich man because he's up to his neck in bank loans to buy a Fastrack, County, etc!

 

I do know that a lot of those people protesting about the FC sell-off think woodland owners are Range-Rover-driving, tweed-coated, asset strippers who make a fortune out of wood. A few might be, I suppose, but most people I know who own woodland just like trees, wildlife and being out in the open air.

 

Any road up; best of luck with the quest. In my experience owning woodland is very rewarding.

 

Try looking at the SWOG site.

 

Best wishes,

 

John Russell

[john k]

Thanks for the encouraging words!

 

It's certainly going to be interesting to see what happens with the FC land. There was a largish area for sale near here (200 acres or so IIRC) which was withdrawn from sale - I wouldn't be surprised to see it reappear in smaller parcels to maximise revenue. Clegg have some more FC woodland listed where it looks like the sale is going through.

 

I get the feeling that the Clegg guide prices are low by more than a few percent. Once the FC sales go through we should be able to find out what the final price was.

[john k]

Try looking at the SWOG site.

I've had a look and there's some good stuff there, but I'm a bit suspicious as it's effectively owned by "Woodlands for sale". I suspect it's more useful for existing woodland owners than for someone looking to buy.

[John Russell]

I've had a look and there's some good stuff there, but I'm a bit suspicious as it's effectively owned by "Woodlands for sale". I suspect it's more useful for existing woodland owners than for someone looking to buy.

 

Ha! I hadn't realised they owned that site. Must say they're damn good at marketing. They bought about 75 acres near to me at the same time as I bought one of my woods. I seem to remember they paid about £90K for it. They chopped it up into blocks of about 6 acres each and at the moment they selling the blocks for about £25K a pop. I think they have discovered that £25K is the sort of price suburban people will happily pay to own a bit of countryside.

 

Best wishes,

 

John Russell

[Mattsnaturalrivers]

Have you ever thought about playing woodlands.co.uk at their own game and forming a co operative with like minded individuals chipping in to buy a patch and then splitting it up according to what was paid in? I for one might be interested if the woodlands were around Hants or Wilts

[bythamboy]

The comments about buying a large wood and sub-dividing to make a serious profit by milking small investors is nothing new , farm land has trebbled in the last five years probably because city investors see it as a safe bet that has potential to beat bank of england 0.5 % base rate.Farm land is now too expensive to buy and farm .

[richy_B]

Have you ever thought about playing woodlands.co.uk at their own game and forming a co operative with like minded individuals chipping in to buy a patch and then splitting it up according to what was paid in? I for one might be interested if the woodlands were around Hants or Wilts

 

I looked into this as an option but the idea of buying a site them legally and properly dividing up seemed to be expensive and relatively complicated. The option of buying and working together (gentlemans agreement as opposed to legally binding) obviously avoids these issues but in practise I doubt things would run smoothly (splitting cost/income, usage, management etc). In principle it seems like a good way of doing it though and perhaps a middle ground could be found with the formation of a co-op or similar. I would be interested in talking more about this if anyone else has an interest.

 

In regards the FC sell off its hard to know how it will work out. You would assume lots of land coming onto the market at once would lower the cost but as someone said it could draw a lot of attention from the purely capital focused investors. From the FC perspective I would have though that a staggered sell of over a decade would be far more efficient but time obviously isn't on there side. From talking to some contacts at the EA I've heard are facing major reductions in operating budgets.