Richard Dawkins- discuss

[Fungus]

Is that fact? It's just I have never heard that eating fungi was probably the most important part in human evolution.

 

Only fungi (and plants) with psycho-active constituents and not in human evolution as a whole, but in the speeding up of the development of our brain, i.e cognitions, a notion of individual (and social) identity and above all development of speech and language, evolving from sign and body language or theatricality (paleoperformance) and uttering sounds to the many languages or tongues we speak today and the ways of modern communication, which seperate us from our next of kin, the primates.

[scotspine1]

Only fungi (and plants) with psycho-active constituents and not in human evolution as a whole, but in the speeding up of the development of our brain, i.e cognitions, a notion of individual (and social) identity and above all development of speech and language, evolving from sign and body language or theatricality (paleoperformance) and uttering sounds to the many languages or tongues we speak today and the ways of modern communication, which seperate us from our next of kin, the primates.

 

Maybe the primates had already done the hardwork before humans had evolved -

 

In his book The Soul of the Ape, Eugene Marais - himself a morphine addict - showed that wild Chacma baboons used intoxicants to disrupt the tedium of ordinary consciousness. In times of plenty when many other fruits were easily available, they went out of their way to eat a rare plumlike fruit, after which they showed all the signs of intoxication.

 

Summarising his findings, which are supported in later research, Marais wrote: 'The habitual use of poisons for the purpose of inducing euphoria - a feeling of mental well being and happiness - is a universal remedy for the pain of consciousness'

[Fungus]

Maybe the primates had already done the hardwork before humans had evolved - In his book The Soul of the Ape, Eugene Marais - himself a morphine addict - showed that wild Chacma baboons used intoxicants to disrupt the tedium of ordinary consciousness. In times of plenty when many other fruits were easily available, they went out of their way to eat a rare plumlike fruit, after which they showed all the signs of intoxication. Summarising his findings, which are supported in later research, Marais wrote: 'The habitual use of poisons for the purpose of inducing euphoria - a feeling of mental well being and happiness - is a universal remedy for the pain of consciousness'

 

There is a lot more (scientific) literature on "stoned apes", elephants and other mammals, searching for and consuming ripe fermenting fruits containing alcohol related ingredients to get intoxicated and reach a state of drunkenness or "euphoria", but the effects are nothing compared to the effects psycho-actives or entheogens trigger in humans, reaching a state of "enlightenment" while experiencing vivid and colourful hallucinations and dreamlike "visions", impossible to be created in other mammals, because they lack the cones necessary for optimal colour vision within mind or in the outside world. Besides, how do you assess "consciousness" in animals, which can not communicate about their feelings or emotions and cognitive experiences ?

I once had a hedgehog in my garden, which came to the ripe and fermenting grapes, which had fallen on the ground. After consuming some fruit, he/she was so drunk, that he/she kept sitting underneath the grapevine without a movement until the next morning.

Apart from some reports of reindeer consuming Fly Agarics and licking up urin of Sami and other reindeer, who/which had digested the mushroom before, of which I was told, that the "habit" was induced and introduced by some Sami acting foolishly with their reindeer, there are no reports of mammals searching for and consuming powerful psycho-active plants or fungi. Have you ever seen a horse eating Psilocybe's growing on his or hers dung ?

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

There is a lot more (scientific) literature on "stoned apes", elephants and other mammals, searching for and consuming ripe fermenting fruits containing alcohol related ingredients to get intoxicated and reach a state of drunkenness or "euphoria", but the effects are nothing compared to the effects psycho-actives or entheogens trigger in humans, reaching a state of "enlightenment" while experiencing vivid and colourful hallucinations and dreamlike "visions", impossible to be created in other mammals, because they lack the cones necessary for optimal colour vision within mind or in the outside world. Besides, how do you assess "consciousness" in animals, which can not communicate about their feelings or emotions and cognitive experiences ?

I once had a hedgehog in my garden, which came to the ripe and fermenting grapes, which had fallen on the ground. After consuming some fruit, he/she was so drunk, that he/she kept sitting underneath the grapevine without a movement until the next morning.

Apart from some reports of reindeer consuming Fly Agarics and licking up urin of Sami and other reindeer, who/which had digested the mushroom before, of which I was told, that the "habit" was induced and introduced by some Sami acting foolishly with their reindeer, there are no reports of mammals searching for and consuming powerful psycho-active plants or fungi. Have you ever seen a horse eating Psilocybe's growing on his or hers dung ?

 

I wonder, considering your views on human intelligence, what do you think of cetaceans? as apposed to the primates, after all, they have more folds and are unique amoung mammals in having a fourth lobe

[scotspine1]

animals can not communicate about their feelings or emotions and cognitive experiences?

 

Really?

 

Why do cats look for a quiet place to die? Ravens have been observed pretending to hide caches of food, elephants seem to mourn their dead for days and weeks after the death. These are forms of communication.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Really?

 

Why do cats look for a quiet place to die? Ravens have been observed pretending to hide caches of food, elephants seem to mourn their dead for days and weeks after the death. These are forms of communication.

 

elephents remember their dead for life, not just months.

 

it is quiet moving to see a matriarc roll a skull around and acknowledging her kin:001_cool:

[Rich Rule]

There are hundreds of Gods worshipped in the world today. To all those who worship one God, I only worship 0 Gods.

 

That means your almost as Atheist as me.

[Fungus]

considering your views on human intelligence, what do you think of cetaceans? as apposed to the primates, they have more folds and are unique amoung mammals in having a fourth lobe

 

Tony,

Of dolphins is experimentally documented, that they have (a sense of) an individual (and social) identity, because they recognize themselves in a mirror.

With other cetaceans with long term family and/or mother-child relationships, such as whales and orka's, they have in common, that they are known for their very sophisticated "verbal" communicative skills by using sound - clicking for dolphins and "singing" for whales - and for their refined sonar location (of prey) systems.

Of orka's, nuclear family burying rituals of and mourning over a dying young has been filmed.

But neither of all these capacities will have developed under the influence of "oceanic" drugs, I presume .

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Tony,

Of dolphins is experimentally documented, that they have (a sense of) an individual (and social) identity, because they recognize themselves in a mirror.

With other cetaceans with long term family and/or mother-child relationships, such as whales and orka's, they have in common, that they are known for their very sophisticated "verbal" communicative skills by using sound - clicking for dolphins and "singing" for whales - and for their refined sonar location (of prey) systems.

Of orka's, nuclear family burying rituals of and mourning over a dying young has been filmed.

But neither of all these capacities will have developed under the influence of "oceanic" drugs, I presume .

 

NO, but as their are more "sounds" in a whales song, than words in the english language one may make a fair assumption, along with their capacity for circumnavigating the globe via the lagest surface (ocean floor) and arriving at each global location at specific yearly food erruptions that whales especialy orkas, blue and sperm have an inteligence that is on par if not exceeding our own.

 

the trouble is that man only has the capacity to recognise an equal or greater inteligence ONLY when it arrives wielding a ray gun and vaporises him:lol:

 

I have see (film) of orcas take a seal pup to train their young, they had already fed well, and after training the young the orca took the pup back to shore and placed it on the ice shelf, alive and kicking.

 

I think we underestimate them, sorry, man underestimates them

[Fungus]

Really? Why do cats look for a quiet place to die? Ravens have been observed pretending to hide caches of food, elephants seem to mourn their dead for days and weeks after the death. These are forms of communication.

 

Yes, elephants also visit the burial sites of their ancestors, but these are all forms of non-verbal communication or behaviour, which are interpreted by us in an anthropomorphistic or human centered way, not of verbal communication of the kind we humans use to communicate with, along with the five forms of non-verbal communication or behaviour, such as intonation and volume of speech or sound, body language or posture and facial expression including eye contact and fixation (only humans have white of the eye), display or ornamentation of the body, personal space (the space bubble) and territoriality.