Large betula pendula

[AHPP]

1 hour ago, organic guy said:

Where you hedgelaying?

Observed at Knitsley today. Cutting at Thropton tomorrow. Undecided on style. I think it’s sort of a leg two of today, mostly same people etc. Seemed to be either South of England, Midland or Lancs/Westmorland today. 

[AHPP]

1 hour ago, Mick Dempsey said:

Heres one, heavily reduced (not by me) more than 10 years ago.

Client wanted it re-done, regrowrth was 15/20 foot, some rot in previous cuts but by reducing the load and going back to live gives it another décade minimum (this is an after pic btw)

 

I’ve had a beer and am now too full of love (and hedgelaying enthusiasm) to argue. Namaste, brother Mick. 

[AHPP]

14 hours ago, kram said:

 

On 09/10/2025 at 17:38, AHPP said:

A small piece butt tied and caught negatively might be jerkier than a large one tip/belly tied with butt weight keeping the butt down. 

Interesting stuff, cant quite visulise it but I like having the tops swinging into tension rather than dropping straight down.

 

It's the peak force thing someone (probably Joe) was talking about a few pages ago. Simplified, you get the weight of the piece and multiply it by 1 for a perfectly static crane pick and 11 for a worst case scenario, dead stop negative rig with a drop. So a 50kg piece plucked beatifully from a high point (50x1=50) might be a lower peak force than a 10kg piece that drops and jolts (10x8=80). 

 

Quiet, peaceful, gentle rigging good. Droppy, smashy rigging bad.

Edited 13 hours ago by AHPP

[tree-fancier123]

5 hours ago, Mick Dempsey said:

Heres one, heavily reduced (not by me) more than 10 years ago.

Client wanted it re-done, regrowrth was 15/20 foot, some rot in previous cuts but by reducing the load and going back to live gives it another décade minimum (this is an after pic btw)

still an attractive tree - and it's not as if you can get the nice thick silver birch trunks like that by replanting any time soon

 

re the decay in pruning wounds - half way down France it's warmer, maybe they fare better than in UK

[AHPP]

13 hours ago, kram said:

I like having the tops swinging into tension

 

That's a good goal but there's a mistake you can make, trying to be too clever. I made it, trying to be too clever.

 

 

Mistake is this: You tension the rigging rope and hold it fairly firmly, thinking you're preventing the spike of the intial loading by pulling it on yourself. If the hinge holds, you've made a massive lever that will put a massive load on the rope. And the shorter the rope (like if you're crotch rigging) the less rope there is to absorb that lever power in rope stretch. You can create monstrous forces in that little triangle. 

If the hinge breaks, the butt will try to hit you.

 

So sometimes it's better to let it move and catch it later.

 

And a related, general point since it's in the picture. Decisions to butt, belly, tip or inbetween tie should be made very consciously.

Edited 13 hours ago by AHPP

[Mick Dempsey]

6 hours ago, tree-fancier123 said:

 

 

re the decay in pruning wounds - half way down France it's warmer, maybe they fare better than in UK

Valid point.

They are however very prévalent in Scandinavia and other colder northern areas.

 

Was thinking about it this morning in on the dog walk.

It’s the attachment points on the regrowth that are strong, compared to say robinia or silver maple, it’s that which makes them ‘reduce-able’

Edited 7 hours ago by Mick Dempsey

[Ledburyjosh]

On 09/10/2025 at 20:45, Mark Bolam said:

You must admit though Josh that is a classic ‘wrong tree in the wrong place’ scenario.

Most gardens aren’t big enough for a mature birch.

They get big.

70’ with a 2’ butt is quickly achieved.

 

Dempsey is probably one of the few people on the planet who approves of hard reductions.

In this country yes.

In others no.

 

It's an interesting topic, the UK is very much a about wrong tree in the wrong place. However if you visit Sweden or Canada there are much larger trees in higher numbers in proximity to building without issue.

 

So perhaps it's more 'right tree wrong attitude'.

 

I do understand that I am in the minority thinking like this in the UK. But I do find the differing views of what's considered as appropriate sized trees to proximity to buildings based on geographic location and social norms interesting.

Edited 6 hours ago by Ledburyjosh

[AHPP]

Big J has remarked on birch quality in the UK compared to Scandinavia (but he would wouldn’t he). 

[kram]

9 hours ago, AHPP said:

 

It's the peak force thing someone (probably Joe) was talking about a few pages ago. Simplified, you get the weight of the piece and multiply it by 1 for a perfectly static crane pick and 11 for a worst case scenario, dead stop negative rig with a drop. So a 50kg piece plucked beatifully from a high point (50x1.5=75 might be a lower peak force than a 10kg piece that drops and jolts (10x8=80). 

 

Quiet, peaceful, gentle rigging good. Droppy, smashy rigging bad.

Your previous wording about tip tying was an awful way to describe that.

 

I'd say a multiplier of 11 is greatly over simplifying it, but perhaps its close enough for polyester arb rigging ropes. I would say if its goong to be that bad, some shock absorbsion should be included inn the system, or the rope wont last long.

 

8 hours ago, AHPP said:

Mistake is this: You tension the rigging rope and hold it fairly firmly,

That is not swinging into tension.

 

Consider an object dropped straight down onto a static rope. It has no other vector and can only bounce back up, or snap the rope. As the rope becomes tensioned, the force increases rapidly.

 

An item thrown to the side, as it becomes tensioned, only the distance is constrained by the rope but it can still rotate around the anchor point, velocity increases rapidly until it reaches the end of swing or hits the stem. Tops have soft leafy brush and great for absorbinng that energy.