Aerial Rescue Practice

[Bolt]

3 hours ago, 5thelement said:

Not all injuries are serious enough to need reporting to Riddor and not all serious injuries and near misses get reported either, otherwise the the HSE would have very accurate numbers, apart from fatalities, they haven’t.

How many gardeners, builders have a go tree surgeons are currently doing tree work under the radar in the UK do you reckon, are these people being injured and reporting to RIDDOR?

Thank you for grasping my point so promptly.

 

I see that we are now in agreement that homeowners on a ladders, travelling wilburys et al. don’t slew the accident statistics.

[Bolt]

3 hours ago, Dan Maynard said:

Health and Safety Case in Forestry and Arboriculture: Case studies

WWW.HSE.GOV.UK

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A selection of case studies relating to incidents and accidents in Tree Work.

 

 

Farmers in telehandlers, people on ladders with no ropes at all, they're all in the list. "Self employed arborist"

 

Several lacerations to the neck in the tree, number 5 was rescued by the groundsman and other climber but already unconscious and died.

 

Although I’m fairly familiar with those case studies, I’m not really sure which ones involve homeowners doing a spot of DIY tree cutting though?

 

Being a farmer or being self employed doesn’t mean you’re not at work.

 

HSE involvement in those injuries will be as a result of RIDDOR reporting, or being called in by police who were attending a serious incident / potential crime scene. 

 

Forestry and Arb statistics are lumped in with agriculture, horticulture etc by the HSE, which is not very helpful, especially when you consider that agriculture is the HSEs most significant source of work. 

[Sviatoslav Tulin]

20 minutes ago, Bolt said:

Although I’m fairly familiar with those case studies, I’m not really sure which ones involve homeowners doing a spot of DIY tree cutting though?

 

Being a farmer or being self employed doesn’t mean you’re not at work.

 

HSE involvement in those injuries will be as a result of RIDDOR reporting, or being called in by police who were attending a serious incident / potential crime scene. 

 

Forestry and Arb statistics are lumped in with agriculture, horticulture etc by the HSE, which is not very helpful, especially when you consider that agriculture is the HSEs most significant source of work. 

All those reports is lacking details, so can not be taken seriously i am always interested to see full investigation report but it never possible and cause concern about public sector professionalsm . Let’s look at neck injury:1)Did operator was wearing mesh visor, was it metal or plastic,was it on proper position,was it CE certified 2)was chain properly sharpened (angles, deep of rakers)3)Bar length, any other unlawful modifications on chainsaw. Statistics is very helpful we can learn on other people mistakes,but we never get those reports which is disturbing at least.

[5thelement]

1 hour ago, Bolt said:

Although I’m fairly familiar with those case studies, I’m not really sure which ones involve homeowners doing a spot of DIY tree cutting though?

 

Being a farmer or being self employed doesn’t mean you’re not at work.

 

HSE involvement in those injuries will be as a result of RIDDOR reporting, or being called in by police who were attending a serious incident / potential crime scene. 

 

Forestry and Arb statistics are lumped in with agriculture, horticulture etc by the HSE, which is not very helpful, especially when you consider that agriculture is the HSEs most significant source of work. 

There are several case studies there where people are described as “self employed” or “contracting” when they are obviously people having a pop at tree work, if they aren’t being paid (reward) they aren’t at work, no ropes, no harnesses, working from ladders, really.

One 85 year old member of the public was killed in a tree felling incident with his family collecting firewood, how is he not a member of the public? or has been deemed to be working? yet they still make it into the statistics.

Edited July 8, 2023 by 5thelement

[Bolt]

1 hour ago, 5thelement said:

 

One 85 year old member of the public was killed in a tree felling incident with his family collecting firewood, how is he not a member of the public? or has been deemed to be working? yet they still make it into the statistics.

 

So, just the one case study then.  And I believe that one is only there as it happened on council land, and the council were obliged to request the HSE investigate them, as they couldn’t investigate themselves.

 

 

[Bolt]

…

Edited July 8, 2023 by Bolt

[5thelement]

32 minutes ago, Bolt said:

So, just the one case study then.  And I believe that one is only there as it happened on council land, and the council were obliged to request the HSE investigate them, as they couldn’t investigate themselves.

 

 

There are several there that are very vague in detail to say the least, where any these people doing someone a favour, working for payment or not?
So a non working member of the public has been added to the HSE statistics, thats fact. Wether or not this happened on Council land isn’t stated, If so, the council would have had to report the death to RIDDOR anyway, not feel “obliged”too ask the HSE to investigate.

[Bolt]

1 hour ago, 5thelement said:

There are several there that are very vague in detail to say the least, where any these people doing someone a favour, working for payment or not?
So a non working member of the public has been added to the HSE statistics, thats fact. Wether or not this happened on Council land isn’t stated, If so, the council would have had to report the death to RIDDOR anyway, not feel “obliged”too ask the HSE to investigate.

I agree.

 

Some of the workers who have made up accident statistics could be considered as rather, errrrrr, ‘Transient’.

 

I’ll own up to another mistake as well, in that is that I have, for some reason, entered into a discussion with a stranger on the interweb, over the methodology used by the HSE to gather accident statistics…. I’m not really sure how I feel about that.

 

I have had a quiet word with myself, and will endeavour to be more careful in future.  👍

[Mr. Squirrel]

I’ve dipped in and out of this thread since is started and have been very surprised by the input. Many posters seeing little value in AR training, while others seem to be pretty against the very idea of one. 

I know of at least 4 people who have performed aerial rescues, two which involved arterial bleeds which without the rescue climber would have been fatalities. Both of those rescue climbers did lots of rescue training.

While we never know how people will perform under pressure, training for these scenarios WILL stack things in at our favour for a positive outcome. It isn’t a time for problem solving, it’s a time to fall back on systems and operations that allow for an efficient casualty retrieval. I’ve discussed this at length with ex military rescue professionals who were of the same opinion. The idea that an untrained groundy would step up to the plate and get you down is very aspirational, not to mention would be putting them in a situation they simply can’t manage safely. 

 

Honestly the cost argument is ridiculous too imo. It could just be at the end of a pruning job rather than knocking off at 3, ‘oi you, come and do a rescue’ kinda thing.  If you’re running a business with a few climbers just have a chat with them, turn it into a social. Figure out a weekend when they can all get together and practice a couple of scenarios. Have a bbq and a few beers afterwards, sorted.
 

It’s in everyone’s best interest, anyone who’s that resistant to the idea should probably seek another career where they can’t be called on to save a colleagues life. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by Mr. Squirrel

[5thelement]

On 11/07/2023 at 17:44, Mr. Squirrel said:

I know of at least 4 people who have performed aerial rescues, two which involved arterial bleeds which without the rescue climber would have been fatalities. Both of those rescue climbers did lots of rescue training.

Why where these climbers not equipped to stop an arterial bleed themselves and get themselves to the ground? Rather than relying on a person on the ground to get set up and rescue them (how long does this take in reality), slower than the time it takes for catastrophic blood loss from an arterial bleed in nearly all cases?