SRT connecting two ropes for bigger trees

[Joe Newton]

14 minutes ago, peds said:

To join two ropes? You mean a flemish bend or a flat figure 8? One of them is great, and one of them kills people, and explaining the difference between the two isn't worth the hassle when there's a better, quicker, and safer knot already available. You can tie a dozen EDKs before you've even rethreaded you second 8.

To me a doubled figure 8 is a flemish bend. Takes maybe 3 seconds more than a doubled overhand knot. 

 

Which is the one that kills people? If its worth the bother to explain?

 

 

 

[Mark Bolam]

Peds, clarification is needed.

Im not doubting you mate, just need clarification of ‘overhand knot’.

 

To me, that is the first bit of tying my shoes?

[peds]

Well the flat figure 8 is, of course. It occasionally claims the odd new death every now and again, as far as I understand. And all it takes is a little easy ambiguity over the orientation of one of the two ropes between the flat and the flemish for a catastrophe to occur, whereas you have to be a major simpleton to f*ck up tying an overhand, where it doesn't matter if they are end to end or parallel or whatever. 

 

It's just... simpler. Listen, tie whatever knots you want, but on paper, there's a clear winner in the contest.

[Mark Bolam]

As Cloughie would say -

‘Young man.

Knots are tied on rope, not paper’.

 

Our definition of an overhand lot is obviously conflicting?

[peds]

23 minutes ago, Mark Bolam said:

Our definition of an overhand lot is obviously conflicting?

God, I'd hope not. 

 

This simple wee fella here...

 

 

Is what appears in most people's minds when they are joining two ropes with an overhand. 

That's what Google images says, so that's basically the word of God. 

 

 

Edit to add

To illustrate the point, all 4 of the strands coming out of the overhand pictured above are safe to put a load on (bit short, those tails, but still). If that were retied as either a flemish or a flat 8, then half of the strands, 2 out of the 4, would be dangerous to put a load on, depending on which strand you've got poking out of which hole.

 

Of course, if you want the OG knot to join two ropes, with all the bells and whistles and weighting every single strand, should the mood take you, you want to tie them into a double alpine butterfly.

Edited January 28, 2023 by peds

[Joe Newton]

18 hours ago, peds said:

Well the flat figure 8 is, of course. It occasionally claims the odd new death every now and again, as far as I understand. And all it takes is a little easy ambiguity over the orientation of one of the two ropes between the flat and the flemish for a catastrophe to occur, whereas you have to be a major simpleton to f*ck up tying an overhand, where it doesn't matter if they are end to end or parallel or whatever. 

 

It's just... simpler. Listen, tie whatever knots you want, but on paper, there's a clear winner in the contest.

You say of course, like you assume everyone comes from a rock climbing background. 

 

Are you a tree climber too?

[carlos]

that 60m rope is looking more appealing by the minute

[peds]

2 hours ago, Joe Newton said:

You say of course, like you assume everyone comes from a rock climbing background. 

It doesn't matter where you learn it, a shit knot is a shit knot no matter what environment it gets tied in, and I say of course only because you clearly know your onions and, of the two knots in question, you choose to use the one that doesn't have a proven track record for occasional fatalities. 

 

Let me be clear on this, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a flemish bend, and if it works for you, great, carry on. Just don't accidentally tie a flat 8 one day when you've got other things on your mind. Whoops! 

 

Can we just imagine, for a second, a flemish tied in the very middle of a pair of 30m ropes, with four 15m tails coming out of it (sorry, that's a lot of rethreading, I know)... that knot is now both a flemish bend AND a flat 8, one of which is great for joining two ropes, one of which is potentially fatal. But it's the same knot.

 

Once again: if you can identify which of the two knots is the one you want, that is, with the force going through the knot instead of across it, then great, work away. Personally, I have chosen to dispense with this decision altogether, use a knot that is bomb proof, easy to identify, and quite possibly the simplest knot to tie in the history of mankind, ever, and I enthusiastically recommend any novices I happen to be sharing rope chat with to do the same thing.

 

I don't want to sound like a prick here, I really don't, but the ambiguity between the flemish and the flat 8 continues to kill people, and it's an important discussion to have.

[Joe Newton]

I didn't know the flat eight was a thing, but the very idea of it seems wrong. 

 

Why was it ever a thing? Seems lazy.

 

The doubled overhand (I knew it as a water knot) is evidently well used in rock climbing but I just couldn't feel safe with it as a base tie. Not sure why. 

[peds]

16 minutes ago, Joe Newton said:

The doubled overhand (I knew it as a water knot) is evidently well used in rock climbing but I just couldn't feel safe with it as a base tie. Not sure why. 

 

Because it isn't complicated enough. Because humans are timid, flighty creatures who need to believe that there's as complex an answer as possible behind keeping them alive. Why settle for the quickest solution available when you could add a load of padding and window dressing and vajazzle to inflate our sense of value.

Of course, you have to have faith in a knot that's keeping you from hitting the ground, and it's just possible that it'll notice if you don't believe in it and come apart. You can't blame it, we all get like that sometimes. But I've spent enough time in my life dangling over hundreds of metres of cold air and jagged granite to learn to trust a simple overhand.