New TPO

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

So, LA raises a new provisional TPO, posts a notice at the site and writes to ‘interested parties’ to inform them - but it doesn’t appear at the planning page with a PA number so that all public can view / comment / observe progress. 
 

Should a new TPO usually be posted to an LA’s planning page with an application number in the same manner as a planning application, TPO app or s211 notice would?

 

Any thoughts??

[topchippyles]

23 minutes ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

So, LA raises a new provisional TPO, posts a notice at the site and writes to ‘interested parties’ to inform them - but it doesn’t appear at the planning page with a PA number so that all public can view / comment / observe progress. 
 

Should a new TPO usually be posted to an LA’s planning page with an application number in the same manner as a planning application, TPO app or s211 notice would?

 

Any thoughts??

The planning dept may not have updated it onto their system yet kev. I have seen it with building applications many times.

[daltontrees]

Regulation s only say (3) A copy of the order shall be made available for inspection, free of charge, at all reasonable
hours, at the offices of the authority by whom the order was made;

 

I doubt if Councils will post it on planning portal. No reason to.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

1 hour ago, daltontrees said:

Regulation s only say (3) A copy of the order shall be made available for inspection, free of charge, at all reasonable
hours, at the offices of the authority by whom the order was made;

 

I doubt if Councils will post it on planning portal. No reason to.

Agree first part Jules, not so much the second part. 
 

In a similar fashion to any planning app, a yellow notice or details of the app are posted at the site and forwarded to ‘all interested parties.’

 

Interested parties would be the land owner, adjacent or otherwise interested parties - town council for example. 
 

If it’s not allocated a PA number and posted publicly at the planning portal, how are interested parties supposed to express their ‘interest’ - comments of support / objection / neutrality?

 

To my way of thinking - a Works to trees subject to TPO and s211 notice are allocated PA numbers, presented at planning page with a reference number and are open to public comment in exactly the same way as any other planning app for construction. 
 

I can’t find any reference in the regs that states that it must be but it seems illogical for it not to be. 
 

Example - a town / parish council populate their planning committee agenda from the weekly / monthly list of applications. If a new (provisional) TPO is not registered in the same way as any other, how are town and parish councils to know - and the general public for that matter?

 

Its not a situation I’ve encountered previously and the question has been posed to the planning officer who is noted in the cover letter as lead for it. 
 

Im guessing TO raises the paperwork and presents the case in favour, if it gets the nod from legal it then goes to the PO for delegated decision (subject to public submissions.)  

 

So I see it as a planning function which ought to be on the planning register. 
 

Awaiting response from PO so will update once known. 
 

Is there anyone in the TO fraternity that could offer some thoughts / previous process experience??

[daltontrees]

Well I'm probably the wrong one to ask, as in Scotland ePlanning is not mandatory. But I was going on the basis that Councils make you do everything through the portal because it makes their life easier. Similarly their life will be easier if no-one makes representations on a TPO. Call me cynical, but...

 

And think about the Council's role. In TPO/CAs apps/notices it is being asked to use its discretionary powers to decide to approve or allow something to happen. In a TPO it has already decided. Challenges on anything other than legal grounds are invalid. So why would representations be sought or make any difference? The Council is deciding that it is expedient for the amenity of the area that the trees be preserved. End of story, barring judicial review. JR by persons having an ownership interest in the land. Or anyone who wants to as long as they hear about the TPO quickly enough. The Council only has to make it available for inspection etc. etc. and as we know this nearly never happens even with confirmed Orders. Granted, a Council (elected members) could refuse to confirm an order made by officials under delegated powers, but do they ever?

[Jon Heuch]

On 02/08/2021 at 11:59, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

So, LA raises a new provisional TPO, posts a notice at the site and writes to ‘interested parties’ to inform them - but it doesn’t appear at the planning page with a PA number so that all public can view / comment / observe progress. 
 

Should a new TPO usually be posted to an LA’s planning page with an application number in the same manner as a planning application, TPO app or s211 notice would?

 

Any thoughts??

The answer to your question is that, as far as I am aware, very few councils do what you suggest and I don't see much benefit from it. The serving of a TPO is typically the result of a threat or potential threat to a tree(s) and these tree(s) are of some importance in the public eye. Would a public consultation really add to this basic situation? After all, if they wanted the tree pruned or removed they can always seek permission after the TPO has been served.....but they clearly only have any rights to undertake the work with the permission of the landowner and/or interested parties. So it is for the landowner to object.

 

I only know of one council that provides information on TPOs via its planning application database - Lewisham. Do you know of any others? Ashford has a separate database of TPOs, but only after a certain date. A few others have lists, which frankly are highly annoying - mostly out of date, some with street names and numbers (OK for Kensington & Chelsea with high ordered streets, but less so with house names, odd bits of land & larger TPOs covering numerous properties) and with varying abilities for searching, rather than turning over page after page, hoping your street address is easily found.

 

Increasingly basic TPO information is available via online mapping and sometimes GIS (i.e. you can download the actual TPO with the latter) but my guess is this is the case with less than 50% of English councils.

 

Contrastingly, some councils post high hedge applications onto their planning database; these should be intensely private affairs so when the correspondence between parties goes into the public domain it can be a bit embarrasing. High hedge appeals are available, on request, from PINS....but if you don't know about them it is difficult to request details.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Jon Heuch
addition

[Khriss]

So much for the .Gov push to get everything online . Question should be why havent they ? Not - should they . K

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

On 04/08/2021 at 09:52, Jon Heuch said:

The answer to your question is that, as far as I am aware, very few councils do what you suggest and I don't see much benefit from it.

 

Agreed, I can't see that many (any) do present the details of a new TPO proposals on the planning page in the same way any other planning application would be.  Granted, the making of a new TPO isn't quite like any other planning app - not least of which because the LPA would be the applicant and the deciding authority which is much less likely in routine planning apps.  That said, the fact that the LPA is the "applicant" and the "decider" is perhaps more reason why the process should be fully open and transparent from the initial assessment through interested party comments all the way to decision.  As to the why / what benefit, well the LPA is "required" to notify the land owner, any person entitled to fell trees affected by the order and any person entitled to extract surface/sub surface minerals plus owners of land adjoining / affected by the order, FC for woodland orders...  etc, etc, etc which runs to quite a long list and that's without considering that Joe Public, town / parish councils might also have an 'interest.'  So what benefit?  Well a yellow site notice plus an entry at the planning page would certainly satisfy a reasonable expectation that it had been made public so that anyone could comment.  

 

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The serving of a TPO is typically the result of a threat or potential threat to a tree(s) and these tree(s) are of some importance in the public eye. Would a public consultation really add to this basic situation? After all, if they wanted the tree pruned or removed they can always seek permission after the TPO has been served.....but they clearly only have any rights to undertake the work with the permission of the landowner and/or interested parties. So it is for the landowner to object.

 

This is where this particular query came from.  It was the landowner seeking access to the supporting documents and public comments which lead to the initiation of a TPO on his land.  I suggested that it perhaps ought to be visible on the planning page but only after we'd both checked via searches found that it wasn't.  He got in touch with the admin nominated as his point of contact and asked the question.  She replied with an answer that wasn't appropriate to the question he'd asked (there's a lesson in being absolutely precise in the framing of questions to public bodies) so had to ask again and again received an unhelpful response - not suggesting any fault here, just illustrating that the system was failing - and then he had to contact the nominated planning officer who sent through by email all of the supporting documents.  I'm guessing planning officers time is more expensive than admin officers time and we certainly have the claim that planning officers are currently snowed under and  +/- 8 weeks behind and seeking a blanket pre-agreed extension from agents - so it seems like an unnecessarily cumbersome means of doing business where (what appears from an outsiders view) a more efficient way might be possible.   

 

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I only know of one council that provides information on TPOs via its planning application database - Lewisham. Do you know of any others?

No - edit - the no was in respect of information being available whilst the TPO is pre-confirmation.

 

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Ashford has a separate database of TPOs, but only after a certain date. A few others have lists, which frankly are highly annoying - mostly out of date, some with street names and numbers (OK for Kensington & Chelsea with high ordered streets, but less so with house names, odd bits of land & larger TPOs covering numerous properties) and with varying abilities for searching, rather than turning over page after page, hoping your street address is easily found.

 

Increasingly basic TPO information is available via online mapping and sometimes GIS (i.e. you can download the actual TPO with the latter) but my guess is this is the case with less than 50% of English councils.

Cornwall is good for online data access - but only AFTER the TPO has been made, not during.  Plymuff city council, not so good with the level of detail available and had to be reminded that they should make orders available for inspection FOC on request after they'd advised that  £40 fee was payable.  I did get in to a bit of hot water with the librarian for photographing 1 particular order that I'd asked to see but librarians don't scare me (too much.)  

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Contrastingly, some councils post high hedge applications onto their planning database; these should be intensely private affairs so when the correspondence between parties goes into the public domain it can be a bit embarrasing. High hedge appeals are available, on request, from PINS....but if you don't know about them it is difficult to request details.

I should probably, and can now, expand a little bit on the reason for the original question.  

 

Person A bought plot of land B at auction by bidding once beyond that which the group of 6 houses (group C) adjoining the land had come together to buy plot B.  Group C then approached person A (after they found out who it was) to see if he would sell them plot B because it was adjoining their houses.  Person A said no.  Group C informed LA that there was a risk of the plot being cleared so LA initiated a provisional woodland TPO.  Person A wanted to see the supporting documentation in relation to TPO and found it wasn't readily available online.  Then began a somewhat time consuming, unnecessary and tedious chain of events resulting in numerous to and from emails taking up lots of LA and land owner time - perhaps unnecessarily.

 

It was interesting reading the entries in Mynors in relation to objections / representations - any person may object (also support) but how would they know if not posted online?  Also the potential 'fragility' of a LPA presenting AND deciding upon its own procedure which may present potential criticism for 'rubber-stamping' and lip service to objections.  Whacking it all up online might be a means to 'open' the whole process up a bit?    

 

It's a bit like the discussion over cm/mm in that other thread, we know what is stated as 'should' happen, we sometimes think there 'might' be a better way and we 'often' seem to be stifled by an apparent lack of enthusiasm to consider (what appears to be) better ways of working because "...the computer says no..."  

Edited August 6, 2021 by kevinjohnsonmbe

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

On 04/08/2021 at 09:52, Jon Heuch said:

Do you know of any others?

Cornwall is pretty good!  You can link right back to source documents - but only after they have been confirmed, not it would seem in the space between provisional and confirmation.

[Jon Heuch]

19 hours ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

Cornwall is pretty good!  You can link right back to source documents - but only after they have been confirmed, not it would seem in the space between provisional and confirmation.

It takes time for a legal document (TPO) to progress from the initial serving to the land owner & interested parties. Inevitably, there will be a gap between serving & going onto an online mapping system. That's why some councils have a clear statement saying their online mapping is not a definitive statement of tree protection.....but that is something slightly different to what you are referring to, as the serving of a TPO is accompanied by a variety of other documents showing how they can comment on the TPO. There is a formal procedure both for serving and for stating how the feedback needs to be made.

 

If land is changing ownership at the same time as a TPO is served it does became mucky and fraught with difficulties if someone who doesn't own the land but is about to take ownership wants to know the legal status of tree protection. What with Land Charges, Land Registry etc it is inevitable that a TPO may not show up with one at a particular time.

 

If your Person A was the land owner at the time the TPO was served the order should have been served on them; if they bought it at auction but was not yet the registered owner, the old registered owner should have passed the TPO paperwork on through their solicitors. 

 

As for anyone commenting on a provisional TPO I still don't see any great merit in opening up the process to others who are land owners or interested parties. 

 

The issue of LPAs being judge and jury is a matter dealt with both by Mynors and other planning guidance. Yes, it can be problematic.

 

As for comparing a legal process (the serving of a TPO) which has to fit into a much larger legal system with the issue of how things are measured and recorded, it's a bit like comparing apples and oranges. The latter is very much a technical/scientific matter and there are simple practical issues to be dealt with. Not really the same at all.