Should a referendum on Scottish independence only include people living in Scotland?

[Mull]

Not really. The SNP, like Labour, are a special kind of stupid. No matter that socialism has a 100% failure rate they still insist on pushing it in the delusion it will work this time. 

Then, when it doesn’t work, we’ll have a vote and tweak it Andy! As was mentioned earlier, we are as well to fuck it up ourselves as we are to carry on with the present pantomime( even although it’s the right time of year for a pantomime)

[trigger_andy]

10 minutes ago, Mull said:

Then, when it doesn’t work, we’ll have a vote and tweak it Andy!

Unfortunately I cannot see it pan out that way. Every version of Socialism has failed. Every new iteration, or tweak as you call it was supposedly 'the one' yet they all failed. Its the very definition of madness to continue down the same path again expecting a different outcome.

 

Scotland has a disproportionate number of dossers all wanting something for free. The reason for such a high number of Dossers? I dont actually place the blame for that at the Scottish peoples feet, rather England and the EU, in differing proportions and differing time periods. But regardless of why the reality is Scotland has too many lazy and feckless dossers and with the SNP's politics of greed and envy the Bums will always vote for them and in larger numbers. Its a race to the bottom and starvation. 

 

10 minutes ago, Mull said:

we are as well to fuck it up ourselves as we are to carry on with the present pantomime( even although it’s the right time of year for a pantomime)

I do see your point but with such a reckless Government as the SNP I'd see us ending up like Venezuela, oil rich but cash poor. Ever increasing taxation and inflation to try and stay afloat. We'd either be begging England to take us back or capitulate to the EU and loose any shred of sovereignty we had left.  The Pantomime as you call it would seem like a utopia compared to what we'd end up with and we'd be 'independent' in name only. 

Edited December 3, 2019 by trigger_andy

[Baldbloke]

Then, when it doesn’t work, we’ll have a vote and tweak it Andy! As was mentioned earlier, we are as well to fuck it up ourselves as we are to carry on with the present pantomime( even although it’s the right time of year for a pantomime)

Your statement mirrors mine over the EU.
Why shouldn’t we fully govern ourselves without EU interference?
Why should A PART of the Scottish 5% of the total U.K. voting public THROUGH the SNP suggest that all of Scotland be dragged back into EU membership. This when a previous Scottish voting mandate insisted on remaining part of the U.K?
And why, if the SNP really wants true independence, does it fail to include full autonomy without EU interference over tax and anti- competition compliance regulation?

The SNP appears good at blaming anyone but themselves for the state Scotland is in. They’ve had a decade to start to change Scotland for the better and have nothing to show for it.

As Andy suggests, socialism just doesn’t work. Dragging everyone down to the lowest common denominator means general dissatisfaction, a brain drain and a reluctance to invest.

[trigger_andy]

5 hours ago, Tristan Audren said:

I lived in Iceland for many years, and can't really say I agree that socialism doesn't work. Quality of life, healthcare, education, lifespan etc is way better than in the UK and most EU countries.

Nordic model (which is extremely socialist, and I don't mean labor party socialist!) is far from perfect but at least it has eliminated a lot of issues....

 

I cant personally speak regarding Iceland but I did live in Norway for a few years and I continue to work in primarily Norway but also Denmark. Both of which are extremely Capitalist but with a strong welfare state. I also wish we had a model based on what I see in Norway, but as you mention the model is not perfect, but it would be far far better than anything the SNP or Labour is offering. Labour, primarily, is purely socialist, that model is doomed to failure like all the other socialist/communist experiments that came before it. The SNP wish to emulate this to some degree but maybe not to quite the same level but the SNP are in no way considering following the Nordic Model. I could list a plethora of examples of what is considered normal in Norway yet would be viewed as either right-wing or extreme right wing here in the UK.

 

Scandinavian countries (Norway and Denmark anyway) also almost exclusively require both partners to work full time. I was quite taken aback to see so many small children dropped off at ''barnehage'' way before School hours started and left there after School time finished. As the kids get older, ie 10 years old they are expected to feed themselves in the Morning, left themselves out the house and go to school. Then after School let themselves in and make some food for themselves as both partners need to work full time. As both partners work babies are routinely dumped on child minders from before they are 12 months old because the parents need to return to work. They dump the babies off before work then collect them after, just in time to but them to bed. They see it as normal, I find it very sad. 

 

Then we have the Scandinavian suicide rate, all which are higher than the UK. Finland, which is often touted as the most Socialist of all the Scandinavian countries and also the happiest country on earth also has the highest Suicide rate out of all Scandinavia, 13.8 people per 100,000.. Could the country be so happy as all the sad people feel like they need to kill themselves? Who knows? Iceland is a smidge behind Finland (13.3) The UK, at almost 70 odd countries further down the list has about half the Suicide rate of either of the two countries (7.6).

 

But all told I would welcome the Scandinavian Model, but we as a people are simply not interested nor ready for that kind of personal responsibility. We live in a Nanny State and have grown so dependent on the state that I just cant see how we could dig ourselves out of that hole. 

 

But Socialism does have a 100% failure rate. Scandinavia is not Socialist. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by trigger_andy

[Guest Gimlet]

Norway is also the world's richest country per capita. It has vast oil wealth and a tiny population. It isn't difficult to have well functioning public services under those circumstances. 

 

[trigger_andy]

4 minutes ago, Gimlet said:

Norway is also the world's richest country per capita. It has vast oil wealth and a tiny population. It isn't difficult to have well functioning public services under those circumstances. 

 

Yes, Norway has generated a vast Oil Fund, but that's for future generations so they also benefit from the Oil bonanza and not just this generation. The Scottish Oil Reserves have been squandered by Westminster and was used to prop up the UK's Credit Rating in the 70's and 80's. The Oil industry really did lift Norway out the the poverty it was in until the early 70's. Before it was fishing and potato farming. Much akin to Scotland their national dishes are often seen as disgusting and well preserved food stuff. Norwegians still have a very basic diet. 

 

So although the Oil revenues generated is not used today the people who work in the industry generate a not inconsiderable amount of tax. But there is only about 170,000 people in Norway that is directly or indirectly employed in the Oil Industry, thats about 6% of the population. In my opinion Norway is considered wealthy because the people live quite frugal lives. Both partners, as I previously mentioned, have to work full time and everyone pays considerably more tax than we do in the UK. They eat very basic food, they seem to rarely travel further than Spain for a Holiday, more often than not they go to Denmark or vacate in Norway. They drive old and shitty cars, or quite often a Van as its cheaper to buy (green plate) than a car with more than 2 seats. But the flip side is a good health service and a good pension and a good infrastructure. In Norway its a common joke that if you go to the Doctors about anything, and I mean anything they tell you to take some Paracetamol and go for a walk. They seem to ban almost all drugs that are readily available in the UK's pharmacies and heavily encourage walking it off. Maybe thats not a bad thing? But I have to smuggle over boxes and boxes of solpadeine over each time I come to work for all the lads with sore backs as its almost impossible to get from the Docs. 

 

Then there is National Service in Norway. But I think its a great thing, the youth seem to be much more respectful compared to the UK. It seems to instill a sense of responsibility in them that we just dont see here. But can you imagine if we tried to start that here in Scotland?  

[Baldbloke]

If it’s true I’ll drink to this:

Poll reveals sharp fall in support for Scottish independence

WWW.THETIMES.CO.UK

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Support for independence is waning in Scotland and swinging behind the Union despite the SNP’s election push, an exclusive poll for The Times has revealed. Fifty-six per cent of voters say they...

[Larch Dark]

On 01/12/2019 at 01:57, trigger_andy said:

I think its about 62 countries in the world that have taken Independence from the UK, I dont think any of them with to return to English rule. I think it would be the same for Scotland, for better or worse. 

 

Scotland isn't under English rule though, is it?

[trigger_andy]

1 minute ago, Larch Dark said:

 

Scotland isn't under English rule though, is it?

Dont be daft. 

[Larch Dark]

3 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

Dont be daft. 

Enlighten us, wise one.