Self employed contract worker

[Treedan]

Hi all.

 

We have a guy who currently works with us 2 days a week on a self employed basis. Hes a really good guy with a fair amount of experience and we would like him to come full time. I approached him with an offer to get him 5 days a week which involved a wage plus straight away his HGV licence, his trailer licence and his rigging ticket. Then every year we spend X of money training him for the next 5 years which would probably leave him with Level 2 or 4 and PTI  he would be pretty well established and experienced by then. He was over the moon with the offer and wants to come work here but he would rather come self employed because he knows where he stands financially and he does have a wife, kids mortgage and a dog!!

So what i want to know is could i take him on self employed and pay part of the course fees but leave myself with some sort of security? Could i get him to sign something to say if he buggers off straight away (which he wont because he is genuinely a good guy) that he has to pay the fees back? Or would what he signs not be worth the paper it is written on?

i dont want to complicate matters with him and i want it to be straight forward.We are both gambling with this little adventure but we will both benefit so theres no reason why he would screw me over but i just want that little bit of security.

Anywhom any advice is appreciated!

[benedmonds]

We have been over the legitimate freelance/subbie vs employee many times on here.

In my opinion if he is already working 2 regular  days under your supervision  the HMRC would probably already class him as an employee and you should be paying him holiday, pension, national insurance etc..  I believe you coul also be persued for non payment of tax if he is not paying it.

Having him as an employee on the books even if it is part time is what hmrc want and might save you grief in the future.

You can write all sorts of things into contracts but whether an employment tribunal would think they are reasonable if push came to shove is debatable. 

[Ian Flatters]

Hi all.
 
We have a guy who currently works with us 2 days a week on a self employed basis. Hes a really good guy with a fair amount of experience and we would like him to come full time. I approached him with an offer to get him 5 days a week which involved a wage plus straight away his HGV licence, his trailer licence and his rigging ticket. Then every year we spend X of money training him for the next 5 years which would probably leave him with Level 2 or 4 and PTI  he would be pretty well established and experienced by then. He was over the moon with the offer and wants to come work here but he would rather come self employed because he knows where he stands financially and he does have a wife, kids mortgage and a dog!!
So what i want to know is could i take him on self employed and pay part of the course fees but leave myself with some sort of security? Could i get him to sign something to say if he buggers off straight away (which he wont because he is genuinely a good guy) that he has to pay the fees back? Or would what he signs not be worth the paper it is written on?
i dont want to complicate matters with him and i want it to be straight forward.We are both gambling with this little adventure but we will both benefit so theres no reason why he would screw me over but i just want that little bit of security.
Anywhom any advice is appreciated!

By the sounds of it you could be in breach of ir35 and on 2 days a week would owe your guy 5 days holiday a year, plus pension and tax to pay to hrmc. If he does 5 days a week then you certainly will be. The Gov website has loads of information on it to be fair and I would check that out.

[Treedan]

Thanks for the info guys.

So even though hes self employed but working 2 days a week for us means we may have to give him holiday and a pension?

 

Ill try and find a thread on here and have a look at the gov website.

[benedmonds]

1 hour ago, Treedan said:

So even though hes self employed but working 2 days a week for us means we may have to give him holiday and a pension?

The point is the HMRC will think he is employed, there used to be a form on the HMRC web site, where you answered questions and it said if you were employed or an employee. I can't find it..

 

Am I employed, self-employed, both, or neither?

WWW.LITRG.ORG.UK

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Whether you are employed, self-employed, both or neither will make a difference to the amount of tax and National Insurance contributions (NIC) you have to pay, as well as how you pay...

 

[SimpleSimon]

10 minutes ago, benedmonds said:

The point is the HMRC will think he is employed, there used to be a form on the HMRC web site, where you answered questions and it said if you were employed or an employee. I can't find it..

 

Am I employed, self-employed, both, or neither?

WWW.LITRG.ORG.UK

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Whether you are employed, self-employed, both or neither will make a difference to the amount of tax and National Insurance contributions (NIC) you have to pay, as well as how you pay...

 

Here is the questionnaire you mentioned 

 

Check employment status for tax - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

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Use this service to find out if you, or a worker on a specific...

 

It's not entirely black and white, but it does help. 

[Treedan]

Thanks again.
I'm not disputing what any of you have said but surely if he is paying his tax there shouldn't really be a problem because that's really what it comes down to. As long as he pays his and I pay mine then I cant see a problem.
I have tried to figure it out from the gov website but I think the only way to be sure is to call them as I dont want to get into any trouble over it.

[benedmonds]

39 minutes ago, Treedan said:

I'm not disputing what any of you have said but surely if he is paying his tax there shouldn't really be a problem because that's really what it comes down to. As long as he pays his and I pay mine then I cant see a problem.

Many tree firms have and do use (including me) freelancers/subbies who should really be employees. I do not know if anyone has come to grief but the potential repercussions could be very costly if done over years..

[dumper]

The answer to your statement that he is paying his tax is that you are not paying your share employers national insurance pension etc