211 notice details.

[Coletti]

Hello all and happy New year.

 

Could anyone shed any light on the detail required for a 211 notice?

 

It's my understanding that a basic description is all that's required as the work you wish to carry out has no bearing on weather the tree in question meets their criteria for a TPO or not.

 

As meeting the criteria for a TPO is the only way they can refuse consent...an exact spec won't change that.

 

The notice that's currently being questioned is to top a row of conifers by 50%, pollard a sycamore and reduce an oak. All are part of a scrappy hedge row that's be left untouched for some time and they say I need to specify exact start and finished height for topping the hedge and pollarding the sycamore and also require start and finished height and spread for the reduction. From my own experience, this sort of detail has only been requested when applying to carry out work to trees with a TPO.

 

Am I wrong in thinking they are asking too much detail for a 211 notice? Or do they actually need additional detail to make a decision?

 

I'd like to add that I regularly deal with 5 or 6 different councils and this is the only one that kicks up a fuss like this.

 

Thanks in advance and apologies for the rant.

 

George

[skyhuck]

If a tree is worthy of TPO, but the work you are doing is acceptable, then no TPO is needed, so they do need a pretty accurate spec of the intended work.

[Gary Prentice]

All you need to provide is enough detail to firstly identify the tree/trees and then enough of a spec to inform what you intend to do I.e what the tree is going to be like when you're done. The height/branch spread sounds like a bit too much to ask for but to be fair the TO needs to know whether the work will ruin

Edited January 4, 2019 by Gary Prentice
Posted before completion

[Chris at eden]

I agree with both of the above.  Just because you don't need to use the one app doesn't mean that an accurate spec isn't required.  Otherwise how does the LPA know if what you are doing would have a negative impact on the visual amenity of high value trees, in which case a TPO would be required?   

 

I don't really know why people submitting a 211 wouldn't use the one app anyway, it not exactly arduous. 

 

Cheers

 

[Coletti]

Thank you both. They haven't even made their site visit yet and I feel if they had, they wouldn't be asking questions but this seems to be the way they work.

I'm aware that "topping"and "pollarding" arent the correct way to go about things but on the other hand...some situations call for just that.

I've had issues in the past when I applied to reduce 5 eucalyptus. My spec was "reduce 5no eucalyptus by up to 3m in height to suitable growth points and reduce extended laterals back to inline with the main canopy" they came back with " we require exact start and finished height before we can validate the notice". That to me is asking for too much info for a 211 considering they just have to decide if the trees in question meet criteria for a tpo or not.

I will have to supply the info they want as they won't validate the notice till I have. I'm just trying to gauge if what they are requesting is over the top or weather I'm just being pedantic about it.

No other councils I deal with ask for that amount of info for a 211, they just use common sense when they make a site visit and I'm not alone in finding them difficult to deal with.

[Gary Prentice]

13 minutes ago, Gary Prentice said:

All you need to provide is enough detail to firstly identify the tree/trees and then enough of a spec to inform what you intend to do I.e what the tree is going to be like when you're done. The height/branch spread sounds like a bit too much to ask for but to be fair the TO needs to know whether the work will ruin

Made a complete cock up posting too early.

 

The TO needs to decide the effect of the work and then decide whether to accept it or or TPO stuff. Providing enough info to make sure they understand the intent, as long as that's based on good practice or management, should be beneficial and makes you look professional (read, they get more helpful if you don't make their life harder)

 

I normally give reduction specs the same as an application, but wouldn't supply details as to the current height/spread of trees or hedges. That isn't even a requirement of a full on app.

[Coletti]

If a tree is worthy of TPO, but the work you are doing is acceptable, then no TPO is needed, so they do need a pretty accurate spec of the intended work.

Had they bothered to make a site visit they would see that none of the trees are even close to worthy of a tpo but they haven't seen the site yet. Hence my gripe at them asking for additional detail that will be irrelevant to their decision, utter waste of time to be honest

[Gary Prentice]

If you want to lop or top it, just inform the intention to fell, if the tree's no great thing.

 

Saves loads of aggro and discussion. 

[Coletti]

If you want to lop or top it, just inform the intention to fell, if the tree's no great thing.
 
Saves loads of aggro and discussion. 

I'll make a note of that for future applications but what happens when you don't fell and just lop and top? Technically you haven't done what you applied for and they would have required much more info to make their decision if that's what you actually wanted to do.

Frustrating thing is that with any other council I deal with, this spec would be fine, get validated immediately and any additional info would be requested following a site visit (which has never happened).

Admitidly the spec is somewhat vague and in unspecified but that reflects what the trees I have been asked to work on are like. If there was actually any worth to any of the trees I'd put a much more detailed spec in

[Gary Prentice]

If you prune, rather than fell as notified, you haven't exceeded the notice and nothing can be done. 

 

I try not to get wound up by stupidity in LAs, normally by planning officers who know FA and make demands that they legally can't. 

 

I figure that I'll write an exact work spec for the client in the quote, which goes to site with the climber. Just copy that into the notice or application. It helps the TO and he/she will like you for it.

 

not worth getting stressed over cos it'll only be you getting stressed over it. If a LA are getting silly in what they want to know, beyond the act and regs etc, then go to town and battle them- cos they can/do take the most mick from time to time.