Another Validation 'Refusal'

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

26 minutes ago, Gary Prentice said:

As long as the public believe it must be right because the LA ‘know what they’re doing’, the LA will continue to do it, even when it’s unreasonable, causes loss/hardship or additional work for applicants/agents.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5412041/Father-blasts-council-witch-hunt-cuts-tree.html

 

Just saying....

 

No evidence offered by the prosecution....

 

Mmmmmm....

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

29 minutes ago, Gary Prentice said:

Sorry Paul, but stamping & screaming does help, as long as you can find the right person to direct your (my ) ire to.  I have managed to make our LA make changes in some of their more ‘unreasonable’ demands and expectations over the years, just by perseverance and knowing the laws and regs better than they often do. As long as the public believe it must be right because the LA ‘know what they’re doing’, the LA will continue to do it, even when it’s unreasonable, causes loss/hardship or additional work for applicants/agents.

 

Client doesn’t have a copy of the TPO

Sorry Gary, wasn't meaning to be flippant here, just trying to suggest a way to progress things. I admire your perseverance and doggedness and, in all honesty if I were "in your shoes", I'd be the same.

Your point about the LPA always being right is something I encounter through the scheme and assessing contractors knowledge of the TPO system where the only source is the TO / Planning Dept. Whilst many / most LAs are under-resourced these days there's very useful guidance on the planning portal they could / should refer to.

 

Hey good luck..."Citizen Prentice"

 

Tc,

Paul  

[Gary Prentice]

4 minutes ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

Sorry Gary, wasn't meaning to be flippant here, just trying to suggest a way to progress things. I admire your perseverance and doggedness and, in all honesty if I were "in your shoes", I'd be the same.

Your point about the LPA always being right is something I encounter through the scheme and assessing contractors knowledge of the TPO system where the only source is the TO / Planning Dept. Whilst many / most LAs are under-resourced these days there's very useful guidance on the planning portal they could / should refer to.

 

Hey good luck..."Citizen Prentice"

 

Tc,

Paul  

Paul, I know you weren't being flippant, it's not your way!

 

Sometimes, it's worth the time and effort to push for change, to save time and effort in the long term.  

 

Anyway we all learn, or should, by doing things wrong, but if no one tells us we carry on. Ignorance is often bliss

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

29 minutes ago, EdwardC said:

Markinson v Information Commissioner 

 

For those who don't know.

That was a good read 

[Anno]

Ok so a few comments - the TPO maps should be online - it makes all our jobs easier!

I have knocked back applications recently (hence my first reply!) in situations were it has been pertinent to make sure that the specified trees, that were in a group with non TPO trees, were marked up so there was no confusion and there was a need for clarity.

You need to remember that as a TO we make recommendations to Planning, but as it is a Planning function they make any decisions, we just advise and send comments.

Just a final comment, if we want to be treated in a professional manner, we all need to act in a way that takes away any ambiguities and areas of 'woolyness', including submissions and paperwork.

We all love a rant and a good steam, but we have a policy of putting the phone down on people who do are abusive or aggressive - that proper winds them up!!!

 

[Jon Heuch]

21 hours ago, EdwardC said:

On ‎19‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 19:09, Gary Prentice said:

I've just received a communication from a local planning department, invalidating a recent application for the following reasons.

 

1)         We would require a location plan to provide clearly where the trees are in relation to the Tree Preservation Order, also they would need to correspond with the actual Tree Preservation Order.

 

Firstly, I've provided a site plan in the application, clearly showing the property and the location of the trees in the garden.

 

Is anyone else being forced to correspond their tree numbers?

Gary

I've never had this specific problem but I would be happy to provide this information if the council were able and willing to:

 

a) allow a reasonable way to find out whether a tree is protected, or not.

b) when the answer to a) is yes then to provide free and ready access to the necessary plans & schedules.

 

If the answer to both is No then they don't get it!

 

If I got what you are getting on a regular basis and provided your client is prepared for the wait I would just appeal the application (yes non validation is a reason for appeal but PINS may not have to accept it) and then seek costs when the appeal is decided. Remember costs from a planning appeal do not have to follow the decision - they are justified on the grounds of being unreasonable. Just get the council to document their demands. I would prefer to go to a hearing rather than the fast track. It's much easier to put your argument forward and to counter anything that is raised face to face.

 

Once the council has a costs decision against it it is likely to think twice before doing it again.

 

An alternative approach is to seek the electronic copy of TPO schedule and plan via FOI/Environmental Regs.

 

There really is no justification for a council not to have all its TPOs scanned as PDFs and readily available. What does the tree officer do to check an incoming tree work application? Do they open the council solicitor's safe and root through several hundred legal orders or do they have some simpler method for checking? The orders may not be downloadable from a council website due to that being a bigger project but this transfer of information really should be on the list of things to do,  unless tree officers like to waste their time answering simple questions like "is there a TPO on my property?" 

[Jon Heuch]

I just wonder how much time is spent finding out details about TPOs. Let's do some back of the envelope calculations (Enrico Fermi style):

There are 418 councils in the UK (I may be counting 22 county councils unnecessarily)

There were at least 1700 tree surgery firms advertising in Yellow Pages in 2011 covering most of southern England.....we might put that up to 2500-3000 for the whole of the UK.

3000 firms working 200 days a year possibly leads to 300,000 separate jobs (each job 2 days)......so is that 300,000 checks with councils as to whether trees are protected or not? Clearly this is a right back of the envelope calculation but it's not just a few people both seeking the information and councils having to answer.....

 

Those checks will need to go ahead regardless of how the council provides the information......what a waste of time and money if it has to be done manually with a council employee having to search a GIS on the telephone.

 

I am just setting up an auditable TPO search work activity......all via email so we have a trail covering all councils......nightmare!

[Gary Prentice]

On 21/02/2018 at 09:04, Anno said:

Ok so a few comments - the TPO maps should be online - it makes all our jobs easier!

I have knocked back applications recently (hence my first reply!) in situations were it has been pertinent to make sure that the specified trees, that were in a group with non TPO trees, were marked up so there was no confusion and there was a need for clarity.

You need to remember that as a TO we make recommendations to Planning, but as it is a Planning function they make any decisions, we just advise and send comments.

Just a final comment, if we want to be treated in a professional manner, we all need to act in a way that takes away any ambiguities and areas of 'woolyness', including submissions and paperwork.

We all love a rant and a good steam, but we have a policy of putting the phone down on people who do are abusive or aggressive - that proper winds them up!!!

 

I wish, I wish, I wish that more information was online. I can ring, and do, ring our local planning department several times before I get an answer - probably waste an average couple of hrs a week reaching the answer phone.

   Anytime that I think there may be doubt in either the identification (trees within groups) or the work specification, I'll attach labelled photos -identifying individual trees/limbs to removed etc. I don't want a TO ringing me up on his site visit asking questions, because that means I haven't done my job properly. I'll even tag trees if it's really difficult, which helps the lads when they arrive on site too.

The only reason that I've had the phone put down is because I've been politely pedantic, explaining which paragraphs of which act/regulation prove my point. Thinking about it though, that particular had sent me a letter that seemed to have been written by a ten year old, barely readable and full of spelling mistakes. If my recollection is correct, I sent it back with a request that they got someone who had a basic knowledge of the English language to reissue it.  

 

 

[Gary Prentice]

 

On 21/02/2018 at 17:00, Jon Heuch said:

I've never had this specific problem but I would be happy to provide this information if the council were able and willing to:

 

a) allow a reasonable way to find out whether a tree is protected, or not.

b) when the answer to a) is yes then to provide free and ready access to the necessary plans & schedules.

 

If the answer to both is No then they don't get it!

I did get a response from my response, to the invalid application letter, so I rang the officer. She was adamant that there was a requirement to use corresponding numbers, which since I now had a copy of the TPO would have been petty to continue to argue about.

 

If the authority will email one, I'll comply - I can't do with the aggravation and time involved to argue the point. Besides, It's interesting to read the orders 

 

 I do still believe that it must be difficult for the householder, with little tree identification experience, to comply even with the schedule plan. I've attached the TPO plan, from '95 and the current trees in the area cobered by the plan.

 

 

TPO Schedule for arbtalk.pdf

Edited February 22, 2018 by Gary Prentice

[Jon Heuch]

9 minutes ago, Gary Prentice said:

The only reason that I've had the phone put down is because I've been politely pedantic, explaining which paragraphs of which act/regulation prove my point. Thinking about it though, that particular had sent me a letter that seemed to have been written by a ten year old, barely readable and full of spelling mistakes. If my recollection is correct, I sent it back with a request that they got someone who had a basic knowledge of the English language to reissue it.  

I would forget the telephone, just write to the head of planning (or CEO.....but you will know it will get passed on). If the Council has put their misunderstanding in writing you can attach this. If you really want to wind them up put a FOI request to ask how many such errors has the council made over a certain period.........

 

I have an ever increasing collection of decision notices (and other correspondence) from Councils with very clear mistakes. If I have time I write back informing of their errors and pointing out the consequence of them. I sometimes get an acknowledgement with a suggestion that they will do something about it.

 

Here are some examples:

 

1) reference to the 1969 regulations (I jest not) in a 2015 decision.....with reference to compensation clauses in the order (i.e. someone hadn't woken up to the 2012 regulations. I have just checked a January 2018 decision notice for the same council......and yes, it still refers to the 1969 regulations! However, they have removed all reference to compensation.

2) statements to say that appeals can be lodged from 8 weeks to 6 months (variable between decision notices but all in 2015).

3) reference to Article 5 certificates (in 2015)

 

Now that more planning officers are dealing with tree work applications the text of some correspondence matches the words for a planning application for development........& that leads to a few problems!