Free will or lack of.......

[peatff]

Religion and politics, just ways of setting people against each other. If there was only one political doctrine and one religion man would have to find other things to fall out about. Stihl or Husqvarna ? If god watches me in the shower I'm sure she'll be suitably impressed.

[onetruth]

10 minutes ago, the village idiot said:

(1) According to your view, conciousness cannot be an (off>on) emergent property of increasing brain complexity or an emergent property in any way?

(2) If this is your view, how can you know this?

(3) I just can't for the life of me see how there is any way to know that conciousness (as a universal phenomenon) is necessarily limited in relation to any of the properties in (2)?

(1) Correct, that is my opinion.  Although the word can be used to refer to phenomena that are such emergent properties, such as "is he conscious?" in the 999 sense, or ego in the psychological sense.  I use it to mean that which illuminates the mind, but it is not a part of the mind.  It might be synonymous with soul or spirit, but these terms are also difficult to define, and I don't believe that there are many consciousnesses in reality.  

(2) Hmmmmmmmm.  Me personally? I know that I am something (Descartes might say "I think therefore I am"), so let's say that that something is conscious(ness).  I have never known it to be absent.  On top of that, if I try to imagine that it could be absent, or change in any way, I come up against all sorts of contradictions.

If you mean "how can one Know this?", I don't know, I'm no guru or prophet.  Yoga, meditation and contemplative prayer are all designed to achieve such Knowledge, but I just don't know if they actually can.

(3) "limited in relation"? Did you mean unlimited? It's not limited in any way.

[onetruth]

6 minutes ago, peatff said:

Religion and politics, just ways of setting people against each other. If there was only one political doctrine and one religion man would have to find other things to fall out about. Stihl or Husqvarna ? If god watches me in the shower I'm sure she'll be suitably impressed.

There's no such thing as Husqvarna, and anyone who pronounces it "Still" should be put on a pyre.

[the village idiot]

4 minutes ago, onetruth said:

(1) Correct, that is my opinion.  Although the word can be used to refer to phenomena that are such emergent properties, such as "is he conscious?" in the 999 sense, or ego in the psychological sense.  I use it to mean that which illuminates the mind, but it is not a part of the mind.  It might be synonymous with soul or spirit, but these terms are also difficult to define, and I don't believe that there are many consciousnesses in reality.  

(2) Hmmmmmmmm.  Me personally? I know that I am something (Descartes might say "I think therefore I am"), so let's say that that something is conscious(ness).  I have never known it to be absent.  On top of that, if I try to imagine that it could be absent, or change in any way, I come up against all sorts of contradictions.

If you mean "how can one Know this?", I don't know, I'm no guru or prophet.  Yoga, meditation and contemplative prayer are all designed to achieve such Knowledge, but I just don't know if they actually can.

(3) "limited in relation"? Did you mean unlimited? It's not limited in any way.

OK Much happier with that state of affairs.

 

(3) "limited in relation"? Did you mean unlimited? It's not limited in any way.  I meant limited to being unchanging, indivisible, permanent etc. I know that sounds odd but I think it makes sense.

[onetruth]

2 minutes ago, the village idiot said:

 I meant limited to being unchanging, indivisible, permanent etc. I know that sounds odd but I think it makes sense.

Ok, that's a good one!  Being unchanging, indivisible, permanent - these aren't limitations.  Except, that some thing that has these "qualities" is limited to being not not-unchanging, not not-indivisible, not not-permanent.  I think this is more about the limitations of logic and of language to handle truth, rather than the limitations of truth itself.  Reason is powerful, but not without bounds.

[TIMON]

This is really getting the grey matter a workout. [emoji123]

[the village idiot]

8 minutes ago, TIMON said:

This is really getting the grey matter a workout.

Too right Ti. Free will is a doddle compared to conciousness!

 

Trying to get a full grasp of conciousness is like trying to catch river water with a net. You constantly end up with the contents of the river but never the river itself!

 

Back to the meditation cushion methinks.

[Vespasian]

3 hours ago, TIMON said:

If God hadn’t put the tree in the garden as the one test of obedience, then surely Adam and Eve would just be organic robots? But then God must have foreseen it and already had a plan? Maybe he’s working on “stuff” that we aren’t privy to just yet. (Only if you believe the book, of course )
I have often thought that taking psychedelics is very much like a modern kind of eating from that same “tree”. It certainly seems to produce the same results.

Excellent thread and excellent posts, btw.

Over the years I've wondered where the Garden of Eden might be.... over the years I've tried to figure it all out but without any great success..  then over the last couple of years a couple of pieces of the jigsaw fell into place and now I know exactly were it was within a few metres.. mind due, for the most part its not recognizable as such these days..  the Romans saw to that..

 

 

[TIMON]

One dilemma that cost people their lives in the middle ages - did Adam have a belly button?

It’s still costing people their livelihoods today. Just ask any college professor who holds an intelligent design viewpoint.
(Not looking for an argument, just saying, like)
[emoji33]

Worth a watch if you have the time but a slight derail! (Apologies!)

[the village idiot]

6 minutes ago, Vespasian said:

Over the years I've wondered where the Garden of Eden might be.... over the years I've tried to figure it all out but without any great success..  then over the last couple of years a couple of pieces of the jigsaw fell into place and now I know exactly were it was within a few metres.. mind due, for the most part its not recognizable as such these days..  the Romans saw to that..

 

 

Is it round the back of my Aunt Beryl's, just past the swings, opposite the key cutting place?