A public "good" must be paid for from the public purse

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Most of the problems u've highlighted are absolutely nothing to do with the farmers and all to do with EU/civil servants, and stupid policies.

 

Example??

 

So its not just farmers who get grants but generally there not competing with anyone else.

 

I have no problem if you express concern or displeasure with any sector that is perceived to be subsidised. It's entirely within all of our gifts to have a grump about anything - and to express it and invite discussion / debate. My (current) bete noire of choice just happens to be some of the issues I've expressed here. I'd welcome hearing anyone else's, especially if it provided an insight into an area I'm unfamiliar with. Can't say it's a particularly compelling argument or counter point to simply suggest because there is a perception of subsidy elsewhere, that, somehow, current farming subsidies and practices are necessarily justified?

 

Mibee after brexit is the time to really look at the agri industry (esp the hold supermarkets have, not just on farmers but supplies in general) and change do away with the grants altogether.

 

Yes, I'd agree.

 

But i'm sure u will be the 1st to moan when ur weekly food shop goes up

 

That's the sort of unfounded, rather rash statement that does nothing to advance your cause.

 

I also find it hard to believe many/any farms nowadays have slurry/effluent runing straight into burns.

 

The picture below taken TODAY! And I SEE it daily as I walk the dog. And just to add insult to that injury, it's not even cattle, its equine (which is a recreational and financial benefit to a nearby farm!)

 

Yes 30 years ago but not now, it used to be the norm 30yrs ago, in my area i've never seen the burns so clean.

Which is baked up by the massive numbers of otters living in them

 

 

Maybe it's "good" in your area, that's good! I can only comment on what I see.

 

I don't mean any personal offence. I'm just expressing an opinion based on personal experience, observation and a desire to live in a better world.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

farming industry in the UK is the biggest polluter.

 

 

Recognition and acknowledgement is the first step towards reduction and amelioration.

 

It's just a bigger step for some than others.....

[drinksloe]

I work in and around a lot of farms and it is night snd day to wot it used to be 30 years ago.

Back then most burns anywhere near a farm were a sludgey algae brown mess that u couldn't even see the bottom of shallow burns as rocks were so covered in algae bloom.

Every burn looked like u get when a septic tank blocks.

 

(To be fair both slurry and silage effulent where a relatively modern thing, due to changing farming practices, so they didn't know just how to deal with them or how pollutant they are.

 

I've not seen a burn like that in years/decades and see more evidence of to near blocked/brocken househod septic tanks than i do from farms

 

I'm not saying u don't get some run off from the fields thou while not ideal its not on the scale it was or ur making out, atleast i my area.

Some of the grant schemes now make this far more likely, just crazy.

The Nitrate Vulnerable Zones don't let uspread slurry at certain times of year for local areas to try to stop leaching into water.

But all it means is all the farmers in 1 area aren't allowed to spread it gradually over winter when weather suits and desperate to put slurry out when the date comes so every one in neighbourhood is out spreadng, if it rains that night the local burns will be full of it, but thats how there told to do it.

 

Kevin all the sign says is discharge, that could come from anywhere.

Eggs i also have no doubt farmers are the biggest polluters but thats only cause there is so many of them covering almost all of a catchment area.

 

To be honest kevin i think u just like mumping ur gums about farmers so it won't matter wot anyone says.

Must admit i'm impressed wth ue dedication to it thou, for someone who can't stand farmers u spend a lot of time reading about farming.

 

Ps Countryfile isn't really about farming, its townies ideas of farming, same with Autumn/spring watch has very little to do with wildlife just the disneyfied version townies like.

Don't know many farmers that watch either

[matelot]

Mibee after brexit is the time to really look at the agri industry (esp the hold supermarkets have, not just on farmers but supplies in general) and change do away with the grants altogether.

But i'm sure u will be the 1st to moan when ur weekly food shop goes up

 

I have to admit the argument that farm subsidies are good because they help consumers is bizarre. You really think giving some Duke millions a year is the best way to help people get food?

 

Why not just give consumers the money instead so they can buy food?

 

Farm subsidies are like Robin Hood in reverse. Millions of poor people pay tax so that rich people get money.

[wrsni]

But all it means is all the farmers in 1 area aren't allowed to spread it gradually over winter when weather suits and desperate to put slurry out when the date comes so every one in neighbourhood is out spreadng, if it rains that night the local burns will be full of it, but thats how there told to do it.

 

This past winter has been the perfect illustration of that.

 

One of the driest (in Northern Ireland anyhow) late autumn/early winters on record yet the slurry tankers were sitting parked up when they could have been spreading on dry ground with little rainfall. It started raining properly about two days before the end of the ban period and the next two or three weeks were easily the wettest it's been all winter, but because tanks were full there had to be spreading done and yes, there's bound to have been considerable run off.

 

However this run off is directly attributable to the agricultural policies in place at this time. So if you want change there's no point gurning about the farmers, start lobbying your elected representatives regarding agricultural policy. We live in a democracy, that's how things get changed.

[matelot]

In terms of overgrazing etc it's easy to say we should cut back but while there is plenty of improvements to be made the biggest issue is that Britain doesn't produce enough food to feed itself.

 

Britain isn't self sufficient on a lot of things. Why should farming get subsidies while other industries also struggle?

[wrsni]

Why should farming get subsidies while other industries also struggle?

 

Because it's obviously the most important, and by quite some margin!

[gdh]

Britain isn't self sufficient on a lot of things. Why should farming get subsidies while other industries also struggle?

 

I think we should all support all our industries and try to keep as many industries here as possible. I've nothing against importing what we need but I would rather support local products when they're available.

 

In terms of farming I would prefer a tax on imports from countries that don't have the same standards as us but subsidies are a way of keeping food prices down for everyone while helping farmers afford to farm to Britain's high standards.

 

To put subsidies another way - if I was a tree surgeon and one day the government said I had to keep a record of every branch I cut and which cut I used, only cut certain days of the year, use a special type of very expensive fuel etc I would have to put my prices up. That would be annoying but not a problem unless they allowed tree surgeons from other countries to come and do it cheaply without any restrictions in which case I would need help from the government to compete with them.

 

Not the best comparison but you get the point.

[drinksloe]

I have to admit the argument that farm subsidies are good because they help consumers is bizarre. You really think giving some Duke millions a year is the best way to help people get food?

 

Why not just give consumers the money instead so they can buy food?

 

Farm subsidies are like Robin Hood in reverse. Millions of poor people pay tax so that rich people get money.

 

So wot about all the relatively poor farmers sitting in tennent farms??

Someone mentioned a hill farmer in the lakes earlier.

Not all subs go to dukes. But dukes by there nature do tend to own large areas of land

 

Sadly money goes to money no matter wot industry ur in

 

I'm not massively in favour of subs, but it was not designed by the farmers and they're just working with wot they've got.

I bet most farmers would happily get rid of them if they were guarantee'd a fair price for there produce with a level playing field.

 

And before anyone goes on about 'guaranteeing a fair price' how many on here would quote £200 for tree work and householder only offers u £100 u would walk away from the job, not so easyy when u've already done the work/grow the crops/raised the stock and have to sell it

 

Just on the pollution front again there is so many regulartly bodies and quality assurance schemes nowadays never mind SEPA (or english version) farm inspections/visits and even dog walkers etc, i do find it hard to believe that many farms openly have pollutants running into burns all the time. Not saying accidents don't happen thou

 

I know locally a wee while ago there was a big thing about e.coli on beaches and were fencing off any watercourses within 5 miles and not allowing stock to drink out of the burns the way they have for hundreds of years.

[wrsni]

To put subsidies another way - if I was a tree surgeon and one day the government said I had to keep a record of every branch I cut and which cut I used, only cut certain days of the year, use a special type of very expensive fuel etc I would have to put my prices up. That would be annoying but not a problem unless they allowed tree surgeons from other countries to come and do it cheaply without any restrictions in which case I would need help from the government to compete with them.

 

Not the best comparison but you get the point.

 

 

Actually I think it's an excellent comparison.

 

Subsidies in farming are not about putting money in peoples pockets "per se", they are about control and influence, and any "industry" expected to follow a certain path is subsidised.

 

Government wants more green energy - subsidy!

Government wants public transport kept affordable - subsidy!

Government wants nationwide broadband - subsidy!

Government wants people to stop driving stinky diesel cars - wait and see!

 

...................etc, etc, etc.

 

Farming is utterly under the thumb of government control to a greater degree than ever. 2020 is already being talked about as the beginning of a new era in UK agriculture so instead of griping, make it an issue with your local elected representatives and have your say.

 

Personally, I don't think that agriculture is in a good place. We are entering our third year of organic conversion at home and while it's probably not for everyone to go fully down this route, I really do believe that both consumers and farmers alike would be much happier with a much more extensive farming industry, never mind all the environmental benefits which would result.

Edited April 11, 2017 by wrsni