the village idiot

Our brains are constantly on the look out for patterns. It is largely how they make sense of the world and why we tend to be creatures of habit. When scanning the Arbtalk recent posts list your brain will have a more pronounced pattern recognition response (basically a stronger electrical burst) to some posts over others based on all the previous automatic inputs into the brain. If someone mentions a specific model of saw to you one day and then you see a post refering to this model some days later, your brain will register the pattern and you are quite likely to click on it, where as without it having been previously mentioned you were more likely to gloss over it. Some peoples brains may be wired to click on everything. Most brains though are wired to respond to pattern recognition and click on posts that resonate. In a very real sense the brain (not you) 'chooses' what to be interested in.

As Vesp himself said, he didn't particularly think he had a strong interest in this subject, but for some reason it just keeps popping into his head. He can't instantly dismiss a topic. His brain will unconciously 'decide' whether he continues to be tortured by this devilish topic. Ignoring this thread would improve his odds of consigning the debate permanently to the backburner, but the seed has been sown! What grows and fruits out of that seed is entirely out of his control. I'm quite sure that he can accept this notion but it will annoy the hell out of him!

I think it's more accurate to say that inputs via the senses are controlled due to the nature of the sense organs and the nature of the brain. You are quite right that if your eyes are shut or they are focused elsewhere the visual inputs will be different. The key point is that (however much it feels like you are) you are not initiating the directive to close or refocus the eyes. You are not in control of what the eyes do or don't take in. The directive to close your eyes was an inevitable automatic response by the unconcious brain in response to countless millions of previous other automatic responses stretching back in a very very very long line. Every thought and every action is wholly dependant upon previous thoughts and actions, none of which you had any concious control over. Conciousness can be aware of the automatic flow of your life but it can't influence it in any direct way. When thinking about the nature of choice you have to break things down to the level of 'what caused that choice'. The answer is invariably the state of the brain immediately preceeding the decision. We do not pick our brains or the contents of our brains, we have no say in how they wire themselves, what memories they preserve, how much neurotransmitter they are releasing or anything else relating to it's functioning. We do not pick the state of our brains, and it is the state of our brains that directly leads to each thought and each action in each moment.

The brain is 100% automated in it's output moment to moment. It has no control over what it's inputs are going to be. It is blindly genetically programmed to develop the 'self illusion' and the associated illusion of free will as a consequence. This software will chugg along indefinitely until the brain is exposed to new inputs (such as this thread) which contradicts the status quo, As a direct result of the new inputs the strength of neuronal connections in certain areas of the brain might change as the brain 'checks' this new info against all the other patterns and biases it has developed. The more the brain experiences a 'free will input' the stronger these connections will get, resulting in more thinking about it arising in conciousness. The brain has no agenda whatsoever. It just does exactly what it can with precisely what it has in any given moment. It is not trying to keep us ignorant of the illusion of free will. It has no idea what free will is, or what anything else is for that matter. It is just a fleshy walnut filled with billions of staggeringly well connected neurons and electricity. Until there is any input to the contrary the illusion of free will will be maintained (this is all that can happen). If a 'no free will' input arises it increases the chances significantly of some 'no free will' outputs, but in no way guarantees them. It will entirely depend on what your brain does with the information and any subsequent information that leads from it. So in other words no, it doesn't take free will to discover there is no free will. It would be nice to think that we can decide for ourselves whether free will is an illusion or not, but essentially we can't! This is somewhat ego depleting but also fascinating

Nice overview there Vesp. Hadn't seen that chap before. You don't even need the conclusions of the Libet and Soon experiments to do away with free will. The raw logic of cause and effect over time also leaves free will with nowhere to stand. I agree it is a very slippery concept to get a grip on for any length of time, mainly because our strong sense of having a decision making self tends to muscle it's way back in. But it is a truly fascinating subject. As was pointed out earlier in the thread, those that struggle to even entertain the idea of no free will are generally those most firmly attached to their ego's. This is not their fault, but hopefully this thread might rattle around in their subconcious and give them some space from the ego in the future. It is a good way to be.

That's very kind I have no doubt whatsover that arnica can help with bruising. The problem with homeopathic arnica is that it hasn't got any arnica in it. I'm all for herbal remedies, just not a big fan of magic ones.

Excellent story, and very well told Unfortunately you still gave him a pill of absolute medicinal nothingness. Save your money dude and stay away from things we know for definite do not work beyond placebo. There are lots of things that do actually work that you may be missing out on if you persist in homeopathy.

Very nice indeed, and absolutely no reflection on you that when anyone was brave enough to sneak a peek into Margaret Thatcher's handbag they were met with very much the same scene! Wasn't quite so pleasing for them though!

My own preference is to keep one plate spinning really well. We are all different though. Variety is the spice of life, but too much spice can give you a nasty stomach ulcer.

Wow! And there was me thinking I was pushing the boat out! Are you able to describe this God in any meaningful way? Can you explain how things like our bodies or trees or vacuum cleaners are 'in no sense real'?

Dare I suggest spending that waiting time in the pick up focusing on your breathing. If you get good at it you'll find the subsequent journey can turn out very differently.

Yes. I am no conspiracy theorist (I'm pretty certain that the Earth is not flat, and that passenger jets are not spraying mind control chemicals into the atmosphere) but what is absolutely clear is the HUGE amount of leverage the big tech companies have over our lives and our behaviour. There's not much you can do about this other than be aware of it, and this might in turn lead to decisions like going back to a non-smart phone. The benefits of big tech are undeniably huge and we should be glad we have it. There is a somewhat disturbing underbelly though and it pays to try to keep this in mind.

Spot on Mark! Unfortunately Mindfulness cannot cure your tinnitus but it can change your relationship to it in a way that is almost as good as a cure. The same can be achieved with pain. You can get to a stage where you are aware of there being a ringing or a pain, but it doesn't belong to 'you' in a fundamental way. This greatly reduces the hold it can have.

I did have a pair of those. Excellent cut and very stylish. Only two issues I found. Strangely limited buttock bramble protection. Also, during certain chainsaw operations the exhaust fumes tended to heat up the metal codpiece to eye watering temperatures. Other than those trifling niggles, a very agreeable set of slacks.

Absolutely Bob, and not a derail at all. The environment (whether we are aware of it or not) plays a huge part in determining how we act. If you add the state of the brain into the mix, you have the forces at play in everything you think and everything you do. You ultimately have no control over the environment or the state of your brain in any given moment, meaning you are not responsible for your actions. They are carried out by your brain and body but 'you' do not get a say in the matter. The experience of 'youness' is just a curious add on. You can get some idea of the problem with believing we have an unchanging self riding about in our heads by thinking about the following. Can anyone honestly say that they are the same self when at home, at work or out drinking with mates? Are you the same self you were 10 years ago, 1 year ago or even 10 minutes ago? The environment largely dictates the self that shows up. Some people suffer from multiple fixed senses of self. Some people have reportedly lost the sense of self entirely and live constantly in the flow state. (this must be truly awesome). It is fairly easy to see the 'self' as not being an unchanging constant. It is a bigger step, but entirely possible to see it for the illusion that it is. If you get to this point the concept of free will becomes untennable. It's really important to say that accepting that free will doesn't exist and that the 'self inside your head' is an illusion, doesn't change what you do in your life to any significant degree. The brain still does it's amazing things and directs you through the day. One chap who has purposefully extinguished his sense of self is an Accident and Emergency doctor. The biggest change you will notice is how you view other people. Those doing well are lucky, those not getting on well are unlucky. This is an important shift in perception, it breeds compassion, which is surely a most excellent thing!

You are very fortunate to be able to do that. People with depression very often simply don't have the ability to think through a plan and crack on. This makes life very challenging. Trying to hold together some sort of stable and rewarding life when you have depression is fantastically hard work. Living day to day, free of depression, is a real doddle in comparison.

Nope, Yes, Nope, Nope! Looks like I've got some reading to do. The naked ape has been on the reading list forever.

Hi Wes. good on you for sticking with it. Your description of your experience suggests to me that either you are a natural zen master, or you are falling prey to little corruptions that every meditator does. It is very easy to fall into the trap of assessing your progress whilst meditating. Most people think things like "OK, I've got this sorted now, ah there's a thought, dodged that one. That previous one had me for a little while, but I'm certainly improving." All these sort of things are just more thinking without knowing that you're thinking and corrupt the practice. It sounds from your description that you are able to stay aware of the contents of conciousness, one step removed, with the ability to stop a thought when you want to. This would make you superhuman. Carry on with the practice, and try not to make any judgements whilst in your practice time. If your mind wanders, simply return it to the breath. See if you truly can choose to ride a thought or choose when to return to the breath. If this is the case you should be able to limit any thought to say a 5 second duration. Give this a go. Also worth noticing how you feel after a meditation session and how you interact with other people, especially if you can push practice up to 20 minutes.

I thought this one might come up. To accept the no free will argument gives the ego a mighty kick in the gonads. It doesn't totally extinguish it because the illusion is so strong. In fact the ego remains totally in place even if you don't believe it exists. If you think the ego is causing problems, or you become aware that you are an arsehole you can take steps to chip through the illusion of self, and this is generally very beneficial. WesD has only been meditating for a few 10 minute sessions, and has had the first insight that he is not in control of the next thought to pop into his conciousness. This can be a profoundly helpful realisation for anyone, but especially people who suffer from negative thinking. It is also the first nail in the coffin for the idea that we have free will. You can probably appreciate what a hard sell this is. I am attempting to tell a group of hard working and proud tree surgeons that they had no input into getting to where they have got! I completely agree with you all that it seems undeniable that 'we' make 'our' own choices in life. The trouble is that when you break any choice down into small enough pieces it becomes clear that 'You' are nowhere to be found. Your success is certainly down to your hard work, the confusing reality is that fundamentally, you didn't choose to work hard. The rewards from hard work would have fed back into your brain causing hard work to become a more predictable outcome, 'you' are merely enjoying the ride (hopefully).

Quite right Stubby, just messing about! The free will thread is 100% genuine though, despite sounding just as ridiculous.

Maybe they got wind that I no longer think I exist, and deleted my posts because I wasn't there to write them in the first place?

Great stuff, let us know how you get on.

It fantastically tricky to square these insights with what we experience our existence to be. But when it clicks, it REALLY clicks. This is what Sam Harris is referring to as 'secular spirtuality'. You can reach these life reforming dawnings and experience them without having to tie youself up in knots trying to defend the indefensible (all religions created to date). I completely respect your stance on finding out for yourself before being influenced by video's etc, but it can be truly helpful, and you are reading my posts! Sam Harris is a fantastically clear thinker. He has a degree in philosophy and a PhD in neurosciene, along with having had 30 years meditation practice. I am a university drop out with an NPTC ticket in felling small trees and a 10mtr underwater swimming certificate! If you can bring yourself to, I highly recommend watching the video in the Brit girls-fat thread that you so rightly removed us from!

Great question. This one came up for me too when I started meditating but not so soon! The brain tells you that you have lost focus on the breath. You can't choose when it does and this is why sometimes you are lost in thought for seconds, sometimes minutes. The brain 'knows' at the time it is supposed to be meditating, but it is so automatically unruly and unskilled that any other automatic set of firings (caused by something like the car noise) wil automatically take centre stage in your concious experience. By continuing to (again automatically) return itself to the breath, the brain teaches itself to do it more readily. The result being more concious experience of being with the breath. After some time with meditation practice the brain 'teaches' itself that it is a lunatic. 'You' experience this process played out in conciousness (the chilled out watcher that is you). All we fundamentally are is non-affecting, passive awareness. Knowing this connects us absolutely to every other concious being on the planet. We are all just conciousness! It's the ultimate freak out of all time. It is almost impossibly difficult to internalise the fact that EVERYTHING is automatic, and even more difficult to explain!

Afternoon everybody. Thought of a slightly different way to frame things which may possibly help some things click into place. Your brain bend for today Did you choose to wake up this morning? Of course you didn't. It seems like a stupid question, waking up just happens, but it is a useful insight. You have exactly the same level of choice in every thought and action you experience in life as you do in 'deciding' to wake up. When the brain wakes up (usually in the morning) this is conciousness coming online. Often, for a few moments, you can experience purely just this 'watchful' state. It is a cool place to be. A moment later 'you' wakes up and all merry hell breaks loose. The brain directs the body about it's day completely automatically and takes 'you' along for the ride. Conciousness is aware of what is happening but does not judge it. It is perfectly content and accepting of whatever transpires. In order for the brain to issue it's commands it is constantly searching for patterns, weighing up possibilities, alerting itself to possible dangers and making judgements. It comes to it's own conclusions, but for reasons now less crucial in totay's world (the brain evolved with sabre toothed tigers) the brain automatically attaches some of it's melting pot of deliberations to the construct of the self 'you' that the brain itself developed. The experience in conciousness is that 'you' and the deliberations are the same thing. This is the nature of the illusion. Have a think about that word 'de-liberation'. It is pretty interesting. It is perfectly possible for the spell to be broken, to loosen the false bond between thoughts/actions and the illusion of 'you', and experience liberated reality (the flow of events) from the spacious, content and universally accepting state of conciousness. Pure conciousness is the closest thing we have to a real 'you'. The coolest bit being that pure conciousness is by it's very nature OK with everything.