jaime bray

Thanks for the comments. It may be the case that if the scheme assists in the professionalisation of the industry it may help clients to recognise the skilll base of arborists they employ. It is not solely about academic learning, it also considers experience. It is continually mentioned that the industry needs professionalising, and if people that have vasts amount of experience can stay in the industry longer as their professional skills and experience are recognised within an industry career framework, then they may be more inclined to stay in the industry and not seek alternative work, therefore minimising a total loss of operator skills and experience form arboriculture.

There isnt an awarding body as such, a lot of the assessments will be made by industry peers, managers etc, to attain the higher grades then this may require a more vigorous assessment of a persons skills and experience etc. But the industry is the assessors if you were looking for an assessor as such.

There will be aspects of the experience assessments that will be assessed by peers, work colleagues, managers etc The Ebay issue is something that has been mentioned, but will possibly be an enhancement to the software at later stages.

By the R2 steering group

Pricing would be a hard task, with the varying prices on here from everyone it would turn into a riot. Re. Customer services, things like how to answer the phone professionally, how to keep clients in the know, ettiquette within business, follow up calls, etc. All would benefit retention of customers over longer periods of time.

I was asked as an independant contractor to assist and give opinions on the issue of the Professional Standards Framework initiative for arboriculture. Many other industries have development frameworks in place, assisting industry persons with their career development, enhancement and opportuninties. Arboriculture has a mixed bag, depending on the type of work you do and what experience you have. One thing that is a common occurance is that employers will employ someone that claims to be gods gift to arb, sometimes the right person for the job loses out because they didnt sell themselves well or couldnt show their actual experience and the other person has 'better; paper work. Another aspect of the industry, is the loss of skills as people drop out the top as they have nowhere to go when their body has had enough of climbing, resulting in a complete loss of skills to the company and the industry, and the person starting a new career in a different industry. The Register of Tree Work Operatives; or R2 as it has been branded, will look to put in place a register for industry operatives, that through the stringent process of evidential accounting of experiential learning and skill assessment, and with the recognition of training and qualification acquisitions all combined together, enabling arborists to achieve a grade that will recognise their skills, experience, training and qualifications. There will be an endorsement process that all registraints will have to go through and this will be verified. The intention is to assist in the professionalisation of arboriculture and assist people recognising and achieving their full potential and companies in recruitment. It will be constructed in a way that will recognise the value and benefit of all industry persons, from student learners/apprentices, right through to people that have been on the ropes for 25 years, have vast amounts of experience but little in the form of educational qualifications, yet contribute significantly to the successful development of the industry as they have forgotten more than some will ever know about practical arboriculture. The scheme is being supported by pan industry, with a representative from many sectors. Currently on the steering group is a rep from; ISA, AA, Landex, Bartletts, Glendale, Lantra, A.M.Lane safety consultants and myself; Jaime Bray (Treetop Arboriculture), other industry sectors are being consulted with at varying times, e.g. City and Guilds, insurance companies, however, further work is needed to bring to fruition the scheme. It has been decided by the steering group that an awareness event and sponsor event is put on. This event will brief attendees on the scheme, show the software for the scheme in working situations and also hopefully attract donations from industry figures to bring the scheme forward. Please see the attached PDF for the invitation to the event, there will be a variety of sponsorship packages available, Although it is not going to break the bank I have opened the account with a donation of £100. I am a one man band but i do believe that the industry, with the appropriate support, can benefit from this pan initiative. There are far to many details to continue dribbling on about right now, but please take time to read through the attachment and feel free to show your interest and follow the instructions on the invitation. Opinions welcomed. Although i apologise if i can not answer every question, some of the technical aspects go way beyond my remit. Thanks for reading and thanks for any opinions and support. Sponsorship meeting invite RTWO.pdf

Not sure but hear the 1989? one was a good read...lol

Thanks for the response Steve, What particular aspects do you feel would need covering, I personally think that there are several courses to be made from the soft skills sector of business and that it would not be beneficial to cram it all into one day as the subject matters are to in depth. I would envisage the course possibly being run like a road show type event, similiar to the AAs BS3998 and5837 courses. I will use the feedback from this thread to direct the AA in their decision of whether its viable to look at the issue and provide the skill training as a trade body or just let people go elsewhere and find it. But we all know we are unlikely to seek it. To busy watching snow these days.

Dear All, I have asked the Arboricultural Association if they would consider putting on a customer services course and also possibly look at other areas of what are deemed soft skills for businesses. The course would be aimed at smaller businesses operating within the Arboricultural industry. From what I hear in conversations with many people in the industry and from some customers when i go to do quotes, our industry seems to struggle with the other side of running a business;i.e. the soft skills and communication. What would be the general consensus from arbtalkers? Do you think that you would benefit from something like this? Would you pay to attend for the day to learn the ins and outs of good customer service, good marketing skills, how to sell your product and how to communicate; both wihtin your company and with your client base. I have already found a good provider of the varying skills mentioned and I am looking to put together a few events around the country for the industry. These courses would be ran by the AA using external expert assistance as the provider of the course content and will compliment any other courses already available, but I personally think that this is a skill that is lacking in some aspects of our industry. Please feel free to give your opinions on the subject, also please mention what type of figure you would be prepared to pay for these type of courses. Im thinking somewhere in the bracket of £40-£80, one of the factors will be provision of food. If people require food to be laid on then this will affect the venue choice also the price, however if people are more than happy bringing their own lunch then this reduces the requirements of the venue and also the costing for the event. What do you think? Many thanks!!! Jaime Bray Chairman of the AAs Arborist Working Group (AWG)

Double check that this is the case with the now appropriate 2012 tree regs, copy of info and peter annetts notes available on arboricultural associations website under help for arborists. Also available Richard nicholsons notes on changes to bs5837:2012.

Be wary of the law of joint severances in such situations.

Google military fitness companies in your area, the british military stuff is a start. Chap i went to school with set up own in coventry GoCommando. I train four times a week, its social gets you out and a about and the results are so much better than training in a gym with no-one else around you motivating. Personal trainers are great if you can afford them, but not for me, group training is my thing. Get on it be aggressive with it and say right thats it, im done with the old me. Sometimes though no-one can help you until you help yourself, and by admitting it you have made a start, dont just dwell on it within this thread blah blah blah, get on with it chap!!!! Good luck

I think that steve is right in many ways about having the eye for it, and if that is the case then you do not always have to start from the top, when Im reducing and I do not get to do many big big ones any more, but if there is loads to be done I sometimes start at the bottom, the disadvantage is that as you send down certain branches from above you can damage the growers you reduce back to, but it saves creating a birds nest thoughtout the tree with pruned branches getting hung up. I was also told many years ago by my instructor Mark Fagg, that never thin the tree out before you have reduced as this will limit the amount of growers to reduce back too. I see so often people climbing and thinning as they branch walk out. I personally think that this is not a good idea, I also think that by not thinning much if at all when reducing,you reduce the rate of regrowth and pruning points as the amount of bud left on the tree is significantly higher. Lad that used to work for me reduced a huge cherry 9 year ago, he was clearing away a lot of feather growth on the first stem and i said leave all that just snip the tip out and leave it all in. THe tree still has great shape and the regrowth is so minimal that when i visited last month, again as i do annually to advise on tree management, the tree still does not need re-pruning, and the regrowth is not of length to require pruning to mitigate any regrowth failure due to excessive length. The best way is to visualise the finished tree when you are on the deck prior to climbing, there will be a few branches that you can pick out and then you will know when you are climbing that if you are reducing to those branches then you are on for the shape you have forseen. However, if you havent a clue what a decent tree when reshaped should look like then you are on for a hiding. I was taught never judge a tree you drive past as you do not know what the spec was or what the tree looked like before but do use such examples to ask yourself how you would have finished it. final pruning points or little bits off here or there. If ever you are grounding use that as an opportunity to increase your reducing skills as you can inform the climber of whether in your opinion you think he needs to take a bit more off or climb out further. I have yet to meet a climber in 18 years of doing the job that when told 'You need to go out further or prune there etc' has spat their dummy out and said who do you think you are!!! Treework is about teamwork, and by working as a team then the tree will benefit aesthetically from that teamwork. A lot of it is about pride too..

Lol Im trying to work out the caption, which Paul?

The point to be taken was not that they were similiar it was had the AA set up arbtalk would it be so successfull with near on 25500 members as it is now. There will always be doubters and it is upto people who are doubted to show there worth. Have you ever or are you a member skyhuck? How could the AA gain your support and membership? Thanks.

Hi TH services thanks for your comments, just wondering though, if no one can gaurantee a good company what is the point of you stating that you are local authority approved underneath your logo? Those may not be the exact words I forgot as passed into post. I guess those people that desire to be Arboricultural Accredited companies ArbAcs (the new phrasing) from the AA, are in the same boat. Does your local authority approved status get verified from pen to post? Im unfamiliar with the workings of the Local Authority approval scheme and have recently had one LA tree officer asking me what i thought to some people, not all or you, stating this when there is not even an approval system in place within their particular council. My personal reason for joining the AA was for a sense of belonging, the high quality of the newsletters and info available, and ultimately to contribute to what I see as my industrys UK trade body, be it the charitable status that the AA beholds or the AA as the money making machine that some people judge it to be, which if you had heard the figures released at the AGM this year and if I remember correctly last year, is laughable to be honest. Hopefully with the considerable changes taking place throughout the organisation at present and over the forth coming years it can attract more members. If none of us were to ever have posted in arbtalk this forum would have never developed into what it is now, had the AA developed this forum would so many people still be engaging in it. Or would it be fair to say that because of the influences of our mentors throughout the early stages of our careers, had the AA created Arbtalk many would have snubbed it as the AA again!!! Sometimes it takes a concerted effort from industries to assist in the development of the industry, that effort needs to come from all and not just throw every issue at an organisation that in the past has possibly struggled due to lack of resources and funding, why were those short comings present, possibly through a multitude of things, but contributory to it I would hazard a guess that lack of membership and support would be considerably high on that list. There are many people who see the value of the AA, keeping these people engaged is a task that is continually being assessed, however the poeple that are going to make the difference are people like you, sooooo how can the AA engage you and get your support? Im off out quoting now so if I do not reply its not through ignorance, wil do so when next in. Thanks for taking the time, as without knowing faults people and companies and anything can not adapt. This thread has turned into a bit of a list of issues but thats fine i shall make sure that the people in the AA that need too, read this, and it will be used to assist in directing the AA over the next 2-5-10 years.

[email protected] I am guessing you wont, but dont hold back, I have reported many items in need of address to the AA that get reported to me and they are all being dealt with as resources permit. Many thanks in advance. If anybody else would like to air their grievances or niggles then please feel free to email me and i shall see that it is forwarded accordingly.

Andy, That is a real first class post. I think its safe to say that that is an example of constructive criticism. By the sound of it you sound a fair man so I presume that everybody desereves a second chance in your book. Would it be fair to say that from the fact that 'a lot to convince you' means you are not a closed book and that a second chance of you being a member is a possibility? hehe... I have volunteered for the AA for 20 months now and i have to say that major changes have and are taking place. I guess the only way that industry persons can see those changes is if the AA shouts from the roof tops about this and that, and keep updates coming through this forum. From what I read within this thread and through conversations with people at Barchams seminars etc there is in some camps a real feeling of begrudgement about the AA and their apparent lack of industry assistance, this may relate to a time when you refer to, however i just used to pay membership and never question it so can not comment as i never paid attention to the industry issues. However I do think that the AA of old didnt use to blow its own trumpet when it was deserved and nobody else was going to do it for them. Andy, what do you think to putting something in writing to me and I shall ensure that it goes to the right man. It would be even better if you could highlight in your opinion what needs to change, im guessing your a busy man but thats is a cracking post and i think that there is plenty more where it came from by the sounds of it. Another big issue here is the ArbAc scheme is growing in takeup on a monthly basis, with more and more companies attaining the requirements to achieve the ArbAc 'status' if more and more companies become approved then the scheme gains publicity, neighbouring firms begin to require the scheme as their competitiors are operating to it. The backshot of it is is that more and more firms are all operating at a assessed standard than they previously were and the industry gains recognition as being professional and maturity is shown. Companies that have been assessed as operating on a regular basis in accordance with UK statute law etc can only be a good thing to develop our industry to be strategically recognised and improve conditions for staff too. Great post thanks for taking the time.

Its on the radar for it be rolled out like the BS3998 workshops were. I drove down to the wakehurst place dayearlier this year and it was great. loved it and learnt loads. Very reasonable cost too.

Sounds like you are of the same mindset as me then. I think there should be more branch interaction, I know that the south east branch is considerably active and its members receive a great deal of assistance.

I used to use some blue komet spikes but they were horrendous so avoided spiking as much as poss. I recently bought some spikes, cant remeber the name and it isnt written on them, they are carbon fibre and in black with velcro strapping.Approx 220 quid to buy. I had used them on conifers and other trees of an upright nature but never on a broader tree to be took down before. They do not fit as snuggly under the boot as others appear too and i found that i couldnt climb as poorly (hehe) as i can without them on. they protrude about inch or so from my boot sole and cause slippage. Am i wearing them wrong or is this common with this type of design? Also, is there a thread on spiking and are there any tips available.. or should we set up a new thread. i found myself climbing completly differently in them and made me question was i going about it incorrectly. My anchor point was high in the crown and i was sectioning down a stem that lent out with delicate ornaments underneath in need of avoidance so couldnt just cut and drop too easily, this made my supplementary anchor on the stem awkward too. When you spike is your side strop/supplementary line 90degrees to the stem or do you have it as horizontal and level as you can. When it was 90 degrees with the stem it seemed to drop away from me and the spikes felt more inclined to cause me to slip as i leant in to move strop up or down, but when it was horizontal my line was nearer to my cuts. Due to the bulkyness of the spikes I couldnt get my foot into many of the branch forks either. Is there a minimum distance you cut too your lines when sectioning down? If this is basic and novice stuff then apologies but I feel im doing something wrong when spiking in broad canopy takedowns. Thanks

Something about inappropriate knowledge and usage, and blood that has become poisonous due to toxin build-up shooting to the heart and killing me... when released!!!

That was where I saw it, Lot of thought has gone into it. Knowledgeable chap too.

£175 i think. Good bit of kit, especially if you are miles away from anything. Steve do they still come with the tournicay (spell Check) lol. An army chap told me about tournicays and how they shouldnt be used by general first aiders. The usage of them by my groundy when im unconscious from passing out at the cut from my silky sends shivers down my spine.....