gmanntpo

They are fundamentally weak trees, just go careful! The repentant Gmann

Big apologies from me guys! I was bang out of order last night... I had come back from the pub and had alot to drink.. I know that is no excuse, but I would just like to say how sorry I am for my totally unjustifed and rude comments. I hope you will all forgive me for being a drunken idiot... I was wrong to say those things and I'm truely sorry. I have max respect for every one on the forum.. I'm having a period of reflection to make sure this doesn't happen again.. Once again sorry to anyone I have offended... Truely repentant Gmann

Please tell more about this Monkeyd my friend It was not something I was aware of. Cheers Gmann

..and of course Roger Phillips classic, which I think should always be part of one's collection!! lol

I agree with your comments on Jordan's. It is ok for ident, but doesn't tell you alot in relation to our interests. Will buy Kaiser's book, not one I was aware of, but it sounds good from what you said. I also want to get that new Francis Schwarze book but its £100!!! Have his other book Fungal strategies of wood decay etc and Matthecks manuel of wood decay, which I find very useful. Thanks for the book advice. Cheers mate

As Sylvestris stu, says do a some research. Myerscough will have many resources to examine. As a bit of informal guidance, if you are planning to base some work on what I mentioned, then you are looking fundamentally at the history of the industry. I don't mean detailed work on every tree cut ever made from stoneage times, but a summary off tree management and concentrating on the development of modern arboriculture as we know it.. Its only a suggestion mate, but if you want to run with it, have a chat with your tutor. Cheers Gmann

Does it have much of a target? If so what is its SULE without major pruning. I agree with other members that there is potential to pollard, but I must be honest if it were one of my apps I consider I would allow felling (if that was applied for) and condition in 2 top quality replacement Beech trees (if site is large enough) of a good size (16 - 18cm girth?) that have a potential 100+ years ahead of them. Sometimes (not necessarily in this case) too much emphasis is put on retaining old, knackered trees, when some new trees would be a better solution in the long term - Principles of silviculture in the urban forest. Maybe you agree, maybe you don't, but it is an interesting management system.... Cheers Gmann

Could call Monkeyd Wouldn't have known it unless I looked it up. Did look very much like old P. squamosus. Nice one!! Will keep an eye out for it. Could you tell what tree/stump/wood species it was growing on?? According to Jordan, it favours Beech? Cheers Gmann

Good advice from Fluffy Bunny... It is not acceptable to slag fellow professionals on line, be they educators, arborists etc. You are a young guy starting on his career, so you can be forgiven, but like FB says it is a small industry and one way or another pretty much everyone has some sort of conection with each other.... It is one thing to have a moan between friends (as we all have done!), but best not to go public!!!!! As for your assignment, try researching the establishment of arboriculture in relation to traditional forestry, the divergence from the RFS into the AA and then the concepts of reunification in the principles of urban silviculture... It is quite a modern occurance.. Good luck Gmann

Hi guys For heave to occur there must be a persistant soil moisture deficit (SMD), e.g the soil does not reach field capacity (ie when the soil reaches the maximum amount the pore spaces can hold before saturation point) when rehydrating in the wetter autumn/winter seasons. If this occurs over progressive seasons then the SMD increases, thus if the tree is removed under such circumstances then heave can occur. With an SMD present it can take up to several years for soils to rehydrate to field capacity as the mositure deficit is reduced... As a general rule, as others have pointed out for heave to occur, the tree needs to predate the building, although this is not always the case. Nevertheless, as stated by other members, subsidence and heave can ONLY occur on soils subject to volumatic changes e.g clay soils. The volumatic changes are subject to the plasticty index of the soil (PI) which differ depending on the amount of clay particles in the soil. I must point out that heave happens very infrequently and is dependant on alot factors, the obvious being soil PI, foundation depths, rainfall, drainage, site history, climate patterns, soil permability etc... If foundation depths are sufficient for the soil type then neither subsidence or heave will be an issue. There is a perception that heave will occur when ever you remove a tree on a clay soil, this is certainly not the case! It is also important to differentiate between direct damage e.g tree roots damaging structures through pushing against them (walls, paths etc) and indirect damage, that being causing soil volumatic changes through water uptake. For an informative, I deal with all subsidence cases coming into my L.A and have been trained to make a decision in such matters. Please don't think i'm trying to give it the 'big un'!! but have dealt with many cases with TPO and council owned trees. Nevertheless as other members have pointed out, it is a complex topic that has many variables and my comments are a brief over view. One think I disagree on is not giving your professional opinion, firstly get some knowledge on subsidence issues and then you WILL be able to safely offer some advice and then before long, you can actually charge the client. I know the old saying 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing' but get informed and you can pass on the appropriate advice! For example it doesn't take much to realise that subsidence and heave only occur on clay soils!! The client will appreciate that straight away and that will put you above others to get the job... I have template for subsidence investigations should anyone want to bite the bullet and explore a bit more... Cheers Gmann

Fasinating pics! Gmann like!

Hi mate This looks very much like bacterial wetwood to me. The exudation may smell 'yeasty' or unpleasent due to colonisation by other bacteria/fungi. It leaves a dark, black stain when dry and can form quite a crust. It is also often found where cracks have formed with inrolled callus. This appears to be the case here. In general in its self B/W is not much of a tree health issue as the slime flux produced is not toxic. It can apparently cause dieback, if the bacteria and its toxic soup(!) are drawn up into the xylem and into the transpiration system. The fluxing through the cracks etc are thought to be like a 'safety vent' system when the pressure of gas builds up and as such are not an issue. Interestingly, it is thought that the anerobic conditons prevent decay fungi developing. So is it a good thing?? I guess that is for people to make their own minds up about... Of course other organisms can cause similar bleeding, phytophthora, bark death by fungi, or abiotic casues such as fire damage. Neverthless from the pics, I consider B/W in its truest sense to be a likely cause.. Regards Gmann

Sounds like the client wants you to 'top' it... Nevertheless, you have given the best advice to your client, so go for the miniumum crown reduction work... Perhaps crown lifting may help.. At the end of the day, if it needs severe pruning, its the wrong tree in the wrong place, but you have already advised that. Better a pro like you does it than a 'lop & top' cowboy..

Am with Monkeyed on that... Did it have a really strong fungal smell?

Hi Jools Have sent you private message with a name and contact detail. One final piece of advice mate - get yourself a good tree i.d book and get out there and start learning the different tree species, especially as it will be winter twig i.d when you start!!! Some people find it easy others don't, either way, if you start learning them now it will make life alot easier. Plus you can impress your peers with your extensive knowledge!!!!!!! In my opinion the best book still is 'Trees of Britain and Europe' by the late, great Alan Mitchell. Am sure it has been reprinted. Learn I.d features, common and latin names and if you get chance, a few common tree decay fungi. Don't want to overload you but if you take this advice, I promise you will not regret it!! Good luck Gmann

Interesting Look forward to pics!

Nice one!! My good friend and collegue John Hancock is the senior arborist works for the same L.A as me - he is the best there is! and has recently submitted some pics of a multi host oak to the forum I consider, when John, fells the beast, that some detailed investigation is carried out! Anyone fancy coming down to Worcester to check it out??? Can provide a few beers!!

oh and another one that has just sprung to mind has an abiotic cause.. When I was working as an arborist Large H/c (again) Dying. H/F had been found as and diagnosed as the cause of the tree decline... Nevertheless it seemed obvious to me that the compaction by piling all sorts of heavy blocks etc in the rooting area had stressed the tree and then and only then had h/f been able to colonise the tree and send it into strain...

Indeed I am happy to discuss my esteemed friend!!! A little background to set the scene.... The 2 cases I was in on were when I worked as a tree inspector in Wokingham, in 2003 -5. My first job in L.G and I was lucky to work with 2 highly knowledgeable TI's who took me under their wing... The first case I was only in on in the tail end of the investigation, as it happened before I started working there: In a storm a large horse chestnut fell across the highway onto a taxi driver, who was badly injured. It had failed at the root plate and was a total windthrow. There were a number of mature trees on a large h/w verge that had been inspected recently, including the H/C that failed. There were no crown symptoms visable and on initial inspection h/f rhizomorphs were found under the bark and on the larger support roots close to the stem... Easy diagnosis!! As you can imagine however, this was a big case and WDC were under the cosh to find out why it happened and nothing had been picked up. The compo payout to the unfortunate taxi driver could (and did!) run into 100's of thousands, so the LA insurance company (Zurich) were in a big benny about it... Consequently, an arb consultant was bought in (I can't remember who it was, but it was one of the 'top men'!!! He investigated the site and excavated the roots. The conclusion was that it was ustulina (I still use the old name cos I can't spell the new one!!) The roots were clearly decayed by ustulina (you know the decay pattern) with secondary colonisation of the stressed tree by H/f By the time the report had come through I was on the scene and was able to read it and go through his conclusions... The TI who inspected the tree kept good records (he was a top guy) and was found not to be not a fault as, interestingly, no crown or other symptoms were visible when inspected... About a year or so later I was called out to inspect a large oak that had fallen across the h/w and had smashed someones fence, thankfully no one injured. The root plate was clearly visible and all the roots had been obviously decayed by ustulina with no signs of h/f, except for areas where the ustulina had not yet reached... Accordingly I reached the same conclusion.. This leads me to my latest fascination of multi host trees with different fungi, that are battling for the same food resource and the chemical warfare between them.. I did a little study on an fallen ash stem colonsied by coriolus and daldinia... coriolus won the battle for the supplies!! Thats another story though... I totally agree that ustulina can operate as a saphrophyte, way woundn't any living thing eat something already dead, instead of fighting a battle with a live organism or when it has killed its prey... Alot of my latest observations are purely my own ideas, but am happy to share and see if people agree.. Any feed back welcome Cheers Gmann

Absolutely superb!!! What a job and set of pics!!!

Hi mate I studied and worked at Merrist Wood as a freelance instructor, alot of the time on the 10 week course. It is quite intense, but if your into your trees and enjoy the hard work (and it is hard as anyone on here will testify) then you will really, really enjoy yourself on the course. When I worked there it was run by Jack Kenyon, who is a very respected name in the industry I also worked with quite a few tree surgeons in the area, so have a few names, depending on where you are. I don't live in the area anymore but still keep a few contacts down there. Am sure everyone on the forum will be happy to help if you have any problems on the practical/theory side of the course. Good luck! Gmann

Hey chaps Lets quantify the trees condition and SULE.

A weed Ian!! Thats a bit harsh for one of our true natives!!!

Lets not write it off yet. Pics are needed to give a clear response. Nevertheless, what is the tree vitality like, how has the tree reacted to the damaged area. Reaction growth/wound wood formation...???

There are 5 distinct species of armillaria in europe and the UK, with varying degrees of pathogenicity. Its possible that the sycamore's were killed or weakened by another pathogen and a weakly pathogenic/saphrophitic species of armillaria (e.g A. gallica) was able to exploit it and is now feeding on the huge dead wood resource, hence the numbers of fruit bodies. If this is the case then the beech, providing it is vitaility is good may well continue to enjoy a good life expectency. Beech is listed as have a useful resistance to armillaria, but of course this can depend on a lot of factors. I have investigated several cases where, on first examination, armillaria seems to be the main agent. With further investigation, it has become clear that the armillaria was a secondary coloniser. For example where the fatal agent has been ustulina. On the other hand, it could be the highly pathogenic A. mellea that has killed the sycamores and is now setting its sights on the beech!!! Sometimes a useful indicator is the fact that if there are copious amounts of the black rhizomorphs (bootlaces) then this indicates the weaker sapo/patho A. gallica and cepestipes. Where as A. mellea has very few rhizomorphs. I guess the punch line is, when you see honey fungus, don't always think it has caused the death of the tree and don't necessarily think it will always spread to other hosts. The key to combating armillaria in a garden setting is to maxmise all the tree stocks vitality, through, mulch, fine particle fertilzers and keeping the food source down, e.g grind/remove as much stump/root as poss... Hope that is of a bit of use. Cheers Gmann