What CS39 and CS41 allow you to do?

[Alinicoll]

Lets remember that these are just certificates of competance and the whole thing can be taken way too rigidly.

 

Someone with cs41 is not necessarily able to safely carry out large technical rigging. Somebody with many years of rigging experience but no cs41 will be (probably). There are plently of very good riggers without the ticket out there. You do not need to have cs41 to lower branches from a tree.

 

The question really is what happens if something goes wrong. In the event of an accident an investigator will want to know if everyone was compentant. A ticket may help do demonstrate this but its not the be all and end all of it.

 

If you have cs39 then you have been deemed competent to use a saw in a tree. If you are working with people who understand rigging and you can safely work then rig away. If you don't understand what you are doing, don't do it.

 

Tickets are not licenses. Do we really think that cs40 is mandatory to carry out pruning? Probably not.

[Alinicoll]

 

In your opinion, would someone be qualified and competent to climb and 'dismantle' (cut branches in the crown back to the stem until there is only the stem to be felled from the ground, without the use of any rigging or lowering ropes or lowering equipment) a tree using a top handle saw climbing equipment, PPE and work positioning?

 

Technically the answer is yes they would be 'qualified'. Competance would depend on the climber and the tree.

[Victor]

Well, I am going to explain why I was asking this..

 

I have started a new job as a foreman (head opp) in a local authority; I haven't got CS41 but I have rigged for years and I have received internal training in one of my previous companies by a competent health and safety delegate.

One of the older guys who is now under my supervision argues that I can not be in charge on a site where we are dismantling a tree because I haven't got the rigging ticket even though we were not using any rigging that day.

I climbed a tree and used free fall techniques to cut every limb back to stem and then fell the stem.

He claims I shouldn't be allowed to do this kind of work or be in charge of the working site. It is all down to the fact that he does not like to have a new guy in charge. I said to him that I didn't think he was right and that I would check and I want to know where do I stand legally.

 

I think it is fairly clear I can dismantle a tree just with CS39 using free fall techniques. And obviously, I can be in charge of the working site.

 

Any thoughts are always appreciated.

 

Thanks for everyone to take the time to reply.

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

 

In your opinion, would someone be qualified and competent to climb and 'dismantle'...

 

Qualified = YES, competent = ??? - the true essence of competence / proficiency (an industry W@H ICOP term relating to operatives) only comes with "time served."

 

How much time? = suggest min. 2 years BUT "how long is a piece of string?" (never really understood that saying but seems apt.)

 

Cheers..

Paul

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

and I have received internal training in one of my previous companies by a competent health and safety delegate.

QUOTE]

 

Is there any demonstrable evidence for this? If not I would go and do the "aerial tree rigging" assessment...perhaps considering some level of training prior just to check you've not picked up any bad habits that might sting you in the assessment.

 

That way tis "black n white"...or whatever colour he certificate is

 

Cheers,

Paul

[Victor]

Qualified = YES, competent = ??? - the true essence of competence / proficiency (an industry W@H ICOP term relating to operatives) only comes with "time served."

 

How much time? = suggest min. 2 years BUT "how long is a piece of string?" (never really understood that saying but seems apt.)

 

Cheers..

Paul

 

Fair enough.. competent is more subjective. And I agree it is only truly achieved after years of experience. But don't you show competence when you gain a qualification?

[Victor]

and I have received internal training in one of my previous companies by a competent health and safety delegate.

QUOTE]

 

Is there any demonstrable evidence for this? If not I would go and do the "aerial tree rigging" assessment...perhaps considering some level of training prior just to check you've not picked up any bad habits that might sting you in the assessment.

 

That way tis "black n white"...or whatever colour he certificate is

 

Cheers,

Paul

 

And yes I agree with you again but we are discussing here dismantling a tree without the use of any rigging. Just free fall techniques for cutting limbs from rope and harness. Which I think you should be qualified to do with cs39 and competent to do after more than 10 years doing it. I understand it is a long thread.

[stihlmadasever]

Qualified = YES, competent = ??? - the true essence of competence / proficiency (an industry W@H ICOP term relating to operatives) only comes with "time served."

 

How much time? = suggest min. 2 years BUT "how long is a piece of string?" (never really understood that saying but seems apt.)

 

Cheers..

Paul

 

I would argue the case of when you pass your cs39 assessment the assesor has deemed you competant to perform the required actions in tree to a certain level,but i would agree that competancey in a broader term is down to each individuals opinion.

That said i would have no problem allowing a climber with cs39 to dismantle a tree using step cuts,hand held sections and freefall techniques.

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Fair enough.. competent is more subjective. And I agree it is only truly achieved after years of experience. But don't you show competence when you gain a qualification?

 

Agreed, and adequate competence for one employer might not be enough for another, hence tis subjective.

 

IN terms of demonstrating competence in gaining the qualification = possibly, depending on where your at (in your career / job) and what you've done prior. Hence if like the chap here you've got much previous experience and your taking the assessment / "gaining the qual." essentially for completeness then yes, competence will be, or should be, apparent. If however you're undertaking the assessment / qualification as a 'newbie', often as part of a college course, then I would suggest not...generally speaking.

 

Cheers..

Paul

[TIMON]

 

 

 

And yes I agree with you again but we are discussing here dismantling a tree without the use of any rigging. Just free fall techniques for cutting limbs from rope and harness. Which I think you should be qualified to do with cs39 and competent to do after more than 10 years doing it. I understand it is a long thread.

 

 

Anyone can sling a pulley and rope in a tree and hang branches off it. The real question should be does the person know how to calculate your SWL on any given system in regards to safety factors and cycles to failure. I'm not suggesting that you don't by the way. Just some thoughts 🙂