College and what the industry really needs

[easy-lift guy]

ok, this is good stuf guys.. Would you say then that Colleges in general are trying to teach too many things in to short a space of time?

 

example: Forestry and Arboriculture courses... should it be one or the other?

 

Funding issues.. in the UK here we're unfortunately no longer able to get funding for adult learners, this as you can imagine is making the pool of students younger and therefore "less grown up" for want of a better term, is this going to become an issue?

 

how to keep students in the system.. part of this discussion has to fall on the students themselves and indeed their employers... I hear all day long that they "just wanna get on and do the job" or "why can't I do all my tickets in 2 months and be done with it"... or from employers (this one I see far too often) "just do it this way" or "forget that health and safety nonsense just get it done"

 

How do you think the industry helps or hinders such an approach?

 

TBH I believe there are far to many schools producing quotas of students expecting to be hired right out of school only to have the reality of the job market kick them right in the bottom:thumbdown:

 

As far as the adults wanting to enter this industry the competition will always be a toss up between say ex military that already have skill sets and disciplines in place and say younger more energetic bodies showing potential but still not quite ready for prime time. Funding aside this type of work is really physically demanding and finding the correct formula to produce the best student will continue to be a challenge.

 

The adult students that have the know all and previous life and professional life experiences seemingly should prove the best candidates for the industry only because many have been there and done that already to one degree or another.

 

Younger students have a different point of view since they choose to believe that they do not need years of practical experience in order to achieve what generally

does not come over night. I call this generation the Pepsi Generation since they want everything NOW!!!.

 

I believe that some employers are also of this same mind set and this does not help when it comes to setting a correct example for the students to follow rather than a convenient excuse to counter what has been learned in school but is now a choice between employment with one company or another:thumbdown:

 

I believe a concerted effort between companies and schools needs to be in place to minimize these problems going forward. If such cooperation is presently in place I have not noticed it based on hundreds of post on this site related to this topic. Always room for improvements, however I believe a master plan of sorts between this industry and the schooling systems must be working off of the same sheet of music in order to be successful for the future.

easy-lift guy

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Attention to detail is often mentioned as desirable so in an attempt to RTFQ:

 

"So, if you could spare a minute of your time please state the work you do and what exactly you'd like your new apprentices to be able to do and what you think they should know."

 

(1) Arb, predominantly domestic but with occasional forays into building sites, schools and estates, occasional training delivery / assessment as a freelance trainer.

 

(2) & (3) Start with basic tickets - (old speak) 30,31,38 chipper, 1st aid, site safety and develop further tickets as the apprenticeship progresses. That would be the foundation building blocks that should enable them to produce some output from the early stages.

 

Additional points:

 

If we accept that adult funding is, or has, dried up then colleges will predominantly target youth as the funded income stream. Colleges are businesses and they will target the rich seam of government funding.

 

It is not in the business interest of training establishments to fail more than it passes - funding dries up.

 

It is not in the business interest of training establishments to make the course overly taxing or arduous because the drop out rate will rocket and funding dries up.

 

(I'd suggest those 2 points have a good deal to do with the mass, age and (perceived) lack of quality of output from the training establishments.)

 

The flip side of that is that I've read a lot of threads that denigrate the groundy, the employee, the trainee, the apprentice etc.

 

I think some people have a natural or gained aptitude for training / mentoring and some don't. Or perhaps that some employers genuinely think the apprentice is a working hand first and a trainee second.

 

A possible solution to the perceived mass production of young, lame, uncommitted output (if that is the case?) - introduce an element of character & leadership training into the course. A selection process if you will. Much to be learnt from military selection courses here. Make passing the selection a badge of honour, something to be earned, valued and respected. Only the toughest, most committed will progress from selection to training.

 

I could see that being in the best interest of the industry but not necessarily the college...

[MWArb]

Agreed, I believe colleges, schools and employers need a collective approach.. supply outstrips demand by far.

 

Is this an issue that's come from a lack of governing body? A Corgi if you will.. someone to stop people with 2 weeks training starting a company.. or working without a need for minimum requirements?

[Hodge]

I have had 2 lads on work experience from an Arb course, they were second year students and although nice lads were useless. They had no work ethic, they couldn't use a chainsaw with any confidence as they had had a few hours training in the woods and that was it, they kept getting promised more time in the saw but we're spending more time in the class room learning things that in the real world will be less use than practical skills. People ask to give young lads a chance but why would I when they need to ask mummy if they can come to work!! On the other side of this I have a 16 lad who has not been to school since he was 13, he can't read and is one of the hardest working lads I know, show him once and he can do it.

[MWArb]

Kevin you make some good points.. we have introduced an in house leadership quali that sorts the students with those qualities.

[MWArb]

Hodge your bang on, this is the reason for this thread.. reform starts from within.. my college is changing.. they've listened to the call for practically skilled students rather than brain box's.. knowledge is needed but in its own time.. skills are the key to a good employee.

[MWArb]

We're possibly offering a lvl 1 for those that struggle with the academic side of things.

 

Good to know we're starting to think the right way.

 

The balance between industry requirements and the "business" of colleges is of great importance to me hence this thread.. we as a college need to be ready to adapt to what's needed from both industry and students.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Kevin you make some good points.. we have introduced an in house leadership quali that sorts the students with those qualities.

 

What I had in mind is probably a bit extreme (but not really.)

 

Course week 1 designed to emulate the worst possible working week.

 

Cold, tired, wet, hungry, broken kit, changed priorities, problem solving under pressure etc etc....

 

The individual that can remain focussed on the task and press on even though the body is ready to collapse has demonstrated the minerals that will serve them well in the industry - and life.

 

Easily delivered through fairly standard and well established 'outward bound' activities (not sure if that's still a recognised phrase?)

 

Also not at all sure it would be in the interest of the college because many will try but few will succeed. It'll effect course subscription and funding.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Which college is it? (if you don't mind saying??)

 

I think it's positive that you've thought to ask the question and potentially adopt new practice if it suits....

[MWArb]

Kev again your thinking like me.. I'm not sure one a health and safety level how far we can push them, I can imagine parents complaining if its to harsh (we have to look after them haha).

However, I've already had them climbing in decent wind (not insane but strong enough) and offered those that were prepared to a chance to climb in horrid rain.. this certainly sorted the weak from the strong as far as mental toughness goes and left me with a group on the ground watching while 2 lads and one lass hammered it out at 65ft

 

For now I'd like to keep the college name out of it, those that know me, know where I work but I ask them to also keep the college name out of it for now.. besides i believe this is about more than just our college.. this is an industry problem and reform is needed both inside and outside the education sector.