beech oppinions please

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

treeseer-without seeing crown hard to say re fert--if treee was just thinned--does a "proper thinning" mean interior was gutted?-- then fert would add a lot of end growth which aggravates the stability concern so sounds counterproductive.

 

what else would fertilizer do? alter myco balance for example?

 

re mulch, why tell owners they should give up lawn (which they like so much they just paid to thin crown to get light in), with need/benefit uncertain. there will be lots of resistance to that notion; better to fight another battle?

 

why NOT tell the owners to give up some lawn? they may be keen to care for the treeand grass can and often does outcompete the tree for nutrients, and water, grass roots go deeper than trees. The needand benifits are not at all uncertain and well documented for mulching Guy:001_rolleyes:

 

most important to keep flare clear--mulching that area would favor the decay fungus would it not? establishing objective first helps guide treatment options and we don't have owner here so...

 

No it would not, in fact it would more likely bring in biodiversity, fungivorous insects and combatant fungi.

[Marc]

I,d go with Tony the benefits of mulching are huge. As for fertilising I have seen first hand this kill off trees in time and is something I believe is pointless in the long term.

I doubt the client would go for mulching they rarely do, if the crown seems in good health then I doubt any intervention from us would help unless particular structural weakness can be seen in the crown like possible weak unions sub limbs etc. Reduction can alleviate strain on the base, to much though can be detrimental mass damping Is important. If the base does become/is compromised a reduction will not stop it falling this way or that wind is a powerfull thing.

 

For what it's worth the pics do not look bad but they are just pictures and I doubt any of us can make a through assessment from pics alone.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Marc

[JonnyVine]

F f f f fertilizer? What type exactly? Have you undretaken any soil tests to determine what is lacking? If the answer is no, how do you know what and how much to apply?

[daltontrees]

There's one extra picture of the base of the tree on Flikr that ahows just how close this monster tree is to the house. I am following the speculation about the pros and cons of mulching but ultimately no-one on the forum has seen the size. density and shape of the canopy or the extent of decay and whether it is assymetric. In a worst case scenario the canopy could be heavily leaning towards the house in a northeasterly direction and the decay could be K. deusta related and ready for brittle fracture regardless of extent of wood left.

Personally I would advise getting a professional inspection and opinion and reasoned strategy for risk management. It may be something that an insurer could look for retrospectively if the warning signs were obvious.

[treeseer]

I agree that the shape and size of the crown are key factors re risk. They are also the easiest to mitigate, leaving very low risk.

 

... In a worst case scenario the canopy could be heavily leaning towards the house in a northeasterly direction and the decay could be K. deusta related and ready for brittle fracture regardless of extent of wood left. ...

 

Please explain; I thought that the extent of wood left had everything to do with failure. We deal a lot with K deusta here, and find that fracture is readily avoided with care.

[detritus21]

I.ve been a bit slow replying. Crown wise it is slightly more dominant on the eastern aspect due to the prevailing winds. When the tree comes into leaf crown density and leaf size will be easier to assess. The difficulty with the decay is that as the trunk is still pretty much intact apart from one small area where you realize the tree is hollow. 60% decay is a conservative estimate. From having my arm in the cavity it extends up the trunk further than I can reach and can get my whole arm in. In terms of previous work it has been heavily lifted and the previous thinning looked ok not lion tailed looking at previous cuts I would estimate the thin would be 20%.

 

my overiding concern is the proximity to the house and the extent of the decay even Without the presence of visible fungi. My gut feeling is this trees time is limited. If it was in my own garden I would be wary.

 

i.ll try and get some more pictures of it.

[daltontrees]

Reply to Treeseer's comment.

I am no expert on K. deusta, like most people I rely on the decades of knowledge and research by others, so what I say comes partly from my own experience but mainly form authorities such as Schwarze, Lonsdale, Engels, Mattheck etc.

I don't know the extent of your understanding of the terminology, so I will assume little. Some fungi decay lignin, some cellulose, some both and some lignin then cellulose. It is the loss of cellulose that results in brittle fracture. What K. deusta does in the right conditions is weaken the cellulose (by hollowing out the cell walls) without much perceivable loss of wood volume or density and I believe some of the strength characteristics of affected wood can remain largely unaltered too. Except of course the crucial matter of tensile strength. Failure is sudden when the loss of tensile strength is overcome by wind loads.

This is what I mean, if the extent of wood is being assessed by a hand groping around in a cavity, I don't think that it's quality can be gauged at all, and its quantity only roughly.

Attached are a couple of pics from a K. deusta F. sylvatica victim from last year. A bit of an extreme example but the external bark was largely intact and there is well over 70% wood. Adjacent residents told me it snapped and was down in seconds. The ruler in the poicture is 20cm long. The tree was about 20m high.

Edited February 27, 2013 by daltontrees

[treeseer]

Looking at that stump it's hard to call that 70% wood...but yes K deusta is hard to suss out by mallet. but there are other means.

it's horiz spread that matters, far more than vertical.

wrote attached re schwarze and k deusta; reviewers thought i got the terminology right.

Dendro 11 Bumpy Blackness (2).pdf

Dendro 8 Terrible Tar.pdf

FUNGAL STRATEGIES OF WOOD DECAY IN TREES.doc

[daltontrees]

I have read both those articles before, very good. Sorry if I sounded patronising, I cna never remember who is who on Arbtalk and how knowledgeable they are, so I just went for an explanation that any reader might follow.

You're right, that is less than 70% wood, but I think we both share the sentiment, it is not volume (or cross sectional area) of wood, it is also quality of wood that matters and the soft-rotters take the biomechanics to a new challenging level.

[treeseer]

Rodrigo held up a copy of Fungal Strategies

of Wood Decay in Trees. “Here’s the answer,

amigo—it looks like this picture of Ustulina

deusta,” he said, quoting a passage from the

book, “’With this kind of

decay, acoustic velocity is

not reduced, even at the late

stage of decay.’” He put the

book back into our crate of

references. “The other stems

and the root collar appear

sound, but the root zone is

limited by terrain and many

competing shrubs and trees

around it. Now that we have

collected more information,

we can form new theories.”

“Exactly!” I said, clapping

him on the shoulder. “When

your working hypothesis does

not make sense, return to

your senses. Preclude premature

preconceptions as

you systematically assess the

evidence. If you had used

your hand lens on those

blotches, you would have

seen perithecia, openings like pores,

not looking like tar at all. The epistemological

order is sensation to perception

to conception, also known as

data to analysis to conclusion. We must fit

our theories to the facts, not vice versa.”

“As for nomenclature, this disease has

been reclassified from the genus Hypoxylon

to Ustulina to Kretzschmaria. In the field, we

will stick to the more general term ‘hypoxylon,’

with a small ‘h’. As for sealants, some

formulations have improved on tar, but they

are still experimental. So what management

options would you consider if this multistemmed

specimen was yours?”

“In a healthy tree, the pathogen is usually

compartmentalized and invasion or spread

is stalled,” Codit said, remembering his Modern

Arboriculture. “The big question is, will the

infection break the interior barriers and infect

the other stems? For now, I would lightly

reduce the sprawling ends, cable these two

stems on either side of the infected stem,

and check once a year to see if the hypoxylon

is spreading.

“We have time to see how the tree responds

to root invigoration,” Rodrigo added. “This

prescription for soil improvement and mulching

might increase the tree’s health and

resistance to disease. Research shows that

chipped hawthorn wood may have some

fungicidal value, so we will apply it.”

Our client had been listening as she

approached the arborists from behind. ”That

all sounds good to me, gentlemen,” she

WHAT’S THE

DIAGNOSIS?

agreed. “Please proceed, and leave me the

bill when you are done. Where are you off

to, Dendro?” she sadly asked, seeing me

turn to leave.

“I’m pursuing a long-standing investigation,”

I answered with a nod, pulling my

hat brim over my brow. “Drop me a line if

anything arboricultural goes awry.”

 

Detective Dendro fights for Truth,

Justice, and the Arboricultural Way.

 

References

Corner, E.J.H. 1949. the durian theory, or

the origin of the modern tree. Annals of

Botany 13:367–414.

Schwarze, F.W.M.R., J. Engels, and C.

Mattheck. 2000. Fungal Strategies of

Wood Decay in Trees. Springer, Berlin,

Germany.

Shigo, A.L. 1991. Modern Arboriculture.

Shigo and Trees, Associates, Durham,

NH. 423 pp.

Tee, S.P., and M.L. Wee. 2001. Trees of Our

Garden City: A Guide to the Common

Trees of Singapore. Nature’s Niche,

Singapore.