A really bizarre fungus...

[daltontrees]

I have had a look at Strouts, Mattheck, Phillips etc. notnhing is said about the mode of decay or the pathogenic vigour of X.p. I looked at 'Diseases of Trees and Shrubs' Sinclair et al, an american book which is incredibly thorough. They say that' X. polymorpha is a proven pathogen only of apple. They go on to list species on which they can be found on the butt, including A. saccharinum but not A. pseudoplatanus. Evidence is restricted to USA and Canada. The mode of attack is given in great detail, I can send it if required but it does not say what kind of decay (white, brown, soft) is caused except what is described as an off-white decay of wood beneath a black sheath.

I would be suggesting to the client that although there is no widely published evidence of pathogenesis from X. polymorpha on A. pseudoplatanus, its presence suggests that wood has been killed or made vulnerable by other pathogens and that its near-surface activity can only be complementing the internal weakening of wood by other pathogens and interfering with vascular flows to accelerate the demise.

I would then add that I am not being paid to give a definitive professional view so don't sue me if the tree blows over but you may wish to keep a close eye on it to assess vigour and vitaility (lots of silhouette photos this winter to compare with some next winter). Or pay to get someone else to blame if it goes wrong or to do intrusive investigation. Or reduce knowing that this will accelerate the demise of the whole tree. Or cut losses and fell and replant.

So, having leafed through my library I would say there is not much said definitively about X. p that helps you. Unless anyone else knows something? You sound like the sort who wants to be helpful but again I would suggest the more helpful you are the more it will be construed as expertise that an owner might erroneously rely on. The building insurer, trying to duck out of a claim arising from a catastrophe, might come looking for someone like you to blame. It might count for little that you weren't paid for advice, it is an existing client which could only make the construction of an implied duty of care easier. Gloomy I know but I am just being careful.

ASnd if the tree does get felled, any chance of some pics of the cut stump? Sinclair has ifo that might make the extent of the X. p damage identifiable. Again I can post that info if you want.

[clima]

Excellent advice Dalton thank you again.

I have made clear to the guy that I was not offering professional advice verbally,more that I have a passion for learning about trees --and as an arborist generally, I have an interest in learning about things affecting trees.However,I could direct him towards an arb consultant who may conduct a thorough survey.

Simply,the options with this tree are that estate workers will fell it or it will stay there until it drops unless the guy pays for a consultant survey....as the guy is unlikely to pay someone to survey then who knows the outcome..I think he just hopes the issue will resolve itself.

The owner has asked if I will help out in a years time along his driveway where several mature trees require climbing for deadwood removal and some pruning as part of a project he has devised.(My only advice to him will be during this process).

I take heed of your warning as regards verbal comments being taken as incidental knowledgeable advice/recommendations, its a very good point and easily overlooked when trying to be helpful...as I said previously the owner is a nice guy but then again,best not to be drawn in.

The second point of my initial question was for the purpose of personal learning and development,the thoroughness of your answer certainly helps with that.

As for photos of the tree and stump after cutting,should it happen,then I will send them to you via a pm or on here.

[Hill-Billy]

Great thread guys. So what's the best fungi book...? My fungi knowledge is seriously in need of improving.

[daltontrees]

Clinet may be a nice guy, hence my comment about insusrers being the b***ards.

Don't pm the photos, it's all about sharing experience, knowledge and opinions, stick 'em on here.

[daltontrees]

Haven't found a really good fungi book yet. The one that really explains it all though is Fungal Decay Strategies... I can't remember full title. Will check for you. But it's pretty heavy duty, Mattheck does a lightweight version of it.

I used to try and learn what each fungus looked like and what it did, then I read aforementioned books and realised it is more powerful to understand the ways that trees are infected and weakened and killed by fungi in general, then learn (backed up by observations) how the main fungal species fit in to those 'strategies'. Each to their own though. I like to build from the bottom, and I love threads like this because it is an opportunity to research, top up, share knowledge and to benefit mtually from someone else's observations. One doesn't come across hardcore Xylaria polymorpha every day...

[Hill-Billy]

Haven't found a really good fungi book yet. The one that really explains it all though is Fungal Decay Strategies... I can't remember full title. Will check for you. But it's pretty heavy duty, Mattheck does a lightweight version of it.

I used to try and learn what each fungus looked like and what it did, then I read aforementioned books and realised it is more powerful to understand the ways that trees are infected and weakened and killed by fungi in general, then learn (backed up by observations) how the main fungal species fit in to those 'strategies'. Each to their own though. I like to build from the bottom, and I love threads like this because it is an opportunity to research, top up, share knowledge and to benefit mtually from someone else's observations. One doesn't come across hardcore Xylaria polymorpha every day...

Yeh, that's the great thing about these threads, pooling knowledge so that we can all benefit. I'll sure be making a mental note of that last one.

[clima]

Ha....hardcore it is ! very interesting stuff.I have the benefit of visiting lots of sites around the uk,and speaking to lots of landowners that are keen to point out "the poorly tree" ...often they are trees which are simply way beyond their optimum but sometimes the tree has a causative fungal agent....I have photographed many trees and fungii over time but havent the brain power to digest information for each and every one I have seen so your strategy of learning is likely the best way to approach it all then you can fix memorable details to each fungus/effect/outcome. I similarly try to just read the 'body language'of the tree as best as I can on my limited abilities,the good thing about this type of forum/resource is that it is possible to present issues that perhaps arent readily covered in books or that it is good to ask people for their own personal experience/view...which is often the best answer.

I live on the grounds of a country estate where there are lots of overly mature and failing trees,the estate was once an example of horticultural and arboricultural excellence but has suffered decline just as many other such places have over the years.The place is in much need of attention...however,there are good examples of various features in trees,various defects,plenty of fungii in the right season,etc etc.....so WHEN I get time,it is good to wander around.There are other estates locally which have good and bad examples of tree care....so its good learning about things that I see.

[treeseer]

" I wonder if your clients think the Sycamore is going to buck the trend and cure itself. In my experience things, having reached a point of being a identifieable problem, only ever get worse. Then it is a matter of when the quantified extent of the decay makes the loss of strength an unacceptable risk to the occupiers. Over to the Mathecks of this world to answer that one..."

 

Quantifying can be done with shovel and trowel and probes, and without costly Germans, or anyone else for that matter. In the US it's common to have arbs avoid doing inspections to survey/assess tree conditions, but in the UK it seems much worse, like a class/caste system. Most consultants are just arbs who opened a book now and then just like you are, and maybe got some more letters after their name.

 

Smart to avoid giving opinions based on quick looks. Why not bid on doing a long look 1 hour look yourself? You can do no harm removing soil and dead material. Lots to learn by seeing what's there inside. Less to learn by limiting observations to surface phenomena. See the parable about the blind men and the elephant.

[Gary Prentice]

Haven't found a really good fungi book yet. The one that really explains it all though is Fungal Decay Strategies... I can't remember full title. Will check for you. But it's pretty heavy duty, Mattheck does a lightweight version of it.

...

Fungal strategies of wood decay in trees ...... Schwarze and Mattheck

[daltontrees]

That's the book.

By Mattheck etc I meant it is in the realms of biomechanics, thinking about load distribution, position of centre of gravity, wind forces, loss of strength and the second stage of VTA (see Body Language of Trees and so forth). Hopefully no-one thought i was literally suggesting getting in the man himself...