Body language Quercus

[RobArb]

So you can get smooth "life belt" buckling and rough shell buckling?

 

Sent from Rob's GalaxySII

[Fungus]

So you can get smooth "life belt" buckling and rough shell buckling?

 

Rob,

In oaks, yes.

[RobArb]

I meant in oaks, yes

 

Thanks gerrit, I'm amazing myself with what I'm actually picking up off all your posts

 

Thanks again:thumbup:

 

Sent from Rob's GalaxySII

[treeseer]

I wonder if the sour smelling foamy exudate is of a particular fungal origin. In the usa our disease text from cornell u calls it "frothy flux", and attributes it to a cocktail of soil organisms. In my own feeble but numerous--100+--investigations it has not been associated with wood decay, but is actually antagonistic to fungi.

 

Attached is a somewhat dated account, to which I have received no contradictory evidence to change the basic conclusions or treatment protocol, though I always welcome correction. Updating it is on my to-do list next winter so I'm actively seeking observations of frothy flux to widen my awareness of it. Last month it was recorded in northern Ontario; alarming for a syndrome I previously considered to be a southern phenomenon.

Ooze in the News small.pdf

[Fungus]

I wonder if the sour smelling foamy exudate is of a particular fungal origin. In the usa our disease text from cornell u calls it "frothy flux", and attributes it to a cocktail of soil organisms. In my own feeble but numerous--100+--investigations it has not been associated with wood decay, but is actually antagonistic to fungi. Attached is a somewhat dated account, to which I have received no contradictory evidence to change the basic conclusions or treatment protocol, though I always welcome correction. Updating it is on my to-do list next winter so I'm actively seeking observations of frothy flux to widen my awareness of it.

 

Guy,

Thanks for sharing your observations.

First I must say, that it is of no surprise to me, that your article has not received any contradictory evidence, because the readers of Tree Care Industry (September 2004) will be primarely based in the USA, so it will not have been noticed by arborists, mycologists, forest ecologists and phytopathologists from European countries.

Then there is the fact, that the field research is primarely based on observations on Quercus species, such Q. alba, Q. phellos, Q. stellata or Q. montana, with tree species specific ecosystems, life cycles and soil food webs, including ectomycorrhizal macrofungi, European researchers are not familiar with.

Concerning your article, I have the following questions :

- By what method was the presence of soil bacteria and other soil organisms assessed and by what method was the presence of fungal pathogens, such as Phytophthora species and yet unknow pathogens causing Acute Oak Death identified and excluded ?

- Were the tree species specific ectomycorrhizal macrofungi associated with the life cycles of the trees identified and monitored ?

- Was taken into account, that the high-nitrogen fertilization killed the tree species specific ectomycorrhizal symbionts first, which was detrimental to the nutrients and water supply of the tree and left the root system unprotected for invasions of parasites such as Armillaria and soil pathogens, after which Phytophthora "thrived" ?

My experiences with "frothy flux" and the association with rhizomorphs, plaques and/or mycelia of necrotrophic parasitic Armillaria species, which on oak mostly is A. ostoyae, on 150+ Q. robur and 50+ Q. rubra are quite different from yours. To summarize, my research over a period of 15 years has shown, that the "frothy flux" associated with and IMO triggered by the rhizomorphs or plaques of parasitic Armillaria species blocking the floeem and xyleem transport, can at first locally hinder the formation of mycelia, rhizomorphs or plaques, but eventually "eases the way" by providing a pathway or stepping stone for further development of rhizomorphs and/or plaques, which are well protected against acids and aggressive organisms by a layer of melanine.

Some final remarks to the text and photo's :

- Yeasts are not bacteria, they are fungi (mostly ascomycetes).

- The rhizoid structures in the fourth photo (page 36) don't look like rhizomorphs to me, but have the characteristics of secundary root formation "tapping" the energy rich ooze to facilitate the formation of callus to close the wound, a phenomenon I have often assessed and documented (with photo's) in trees attacked by (rhizomorphs of) Armillaria.

[treeseer]

Well this is refreshing--i first came to internet chat forums to learn about fungi and it has taken 6 years to get a detailed reply! Though i am 12 time zones from home and library i'll reply as possible:

 

" the readers of Tree Care Industry (September 2004) will be primarely based in the USA, so it will not have been noticed by arborists, mycologists, forest ecologists and phytopathologists from European countries."

 

fair enough, though the cornell u text may have been seen over the pond.

 

"Then there is the fact, that the field research is primarely based on observations on Quercus species, such Q. alba, Q. phellos, Q. stellata or Q. montana, with tree species specific ecosystems, life cycles and soil food webs, including ectomycorrhizal macrofungi, European researchers are not familiar with."

 

true enough, though they are still Quercus, in similar landscapes and at similar latitudes. Mycorrhizae may be important but whether they are a determining factor in all pathology is unclear to me.

 

"Concerning your article, I have the following questions :

- By what method was the presence of soil bacteria and other soil organisms assessed and by what method was the presence of fungal pathogens, such as Phytophthora species and yet unknow pathogens causing Acute Oak Death identified and excluded ?"

 

No lab assessment done by this humble arborist. I replied on the reference which I consider the best in north america. The fact is in the 100+ infections i have managed there is no wood decay associated with frothy flux (Sinclair/Lyons termed it this in the edition that came out after the article was written, hence my 2004 struggle for the appropriate terminology)

 

"- Were the tree species specific ectomycorrhizal macrofungi associated with the life cycles of the trees identified and monitored ?

 

In the course of treatment we add air and OM to the soil to foster these, and observe growth aka informal monitoring, but no names are assigned; beyond my expertise. Clients unlikely to pay for same unless benefits clearly worth the cost. so far the trees recover without such analysis.

 

- Was taken into account, that the high-nitrogen fertilization

 

???The lawns these trees grow in are seldom fertilized, and many infected trees are in unferitlized natural areas, so I am not sure what you refer to. At UNC campus they may broadcast some N, and i do agree trees would be more resistant if mulched, but N is not a factor in many cases.

 

killed the tree species specific ectomycorrhizal symbionts first, which was detrimental to the nutrients and water supply of the tree and left the root system unprotected for invasions of parasites such as Armillaria and soil pathogens, after which Phytophthora "thrived" ?

 

sorry but the facts do not fit this theory; i'm trained to let facts drive theory. Also, Phytophthora in the se usa is not virulent but often held in check by drying out the lesions and soil replacement. Armillaria when found can also be controlled in the same manner, in my limited experience and by reading accounts of other arborists.

 

"My experiences with "frothy flux" and the association with rhizomorphs, plaques and/or mycelia of necrotrophic parasitic Armillaria species, which on oak mostly is A. ostoyae, on 150+ Q. robur and 50+ Q. rubra are quite different from yours. To summarize, my research over a period of 15 years has shown, that the "frothy flux" associated with and IMO triggered by the rhizomorphs or plaques of parasitic Armillaria species blocking the floeem and xyleem transport, can at first locally hinder the formation of mycelia, rhizomorphs or plaques, but eventually "eases the way" by providing a pathway or stepping stone for further development of rhizomorphs and/or plaques, which are well protected against acids and aggressive organisms by a layer of melanine.

 

Wow! well what a difference an ocean makes--again, no wood decay associated; none detected by sounding or tomograph or outward signs or conks or response growth. Infections are treated by removing dead tissue, rinsing with 10% bleach at first but now hydrogen peroxide. Persistent lesions are cauterized with a blowtorch. Closure rates approach 1"/year in most trees. sealants sometimes applied when a lot of xylem is exposed.

 

Some final remarks to the text and photo's :

- Yeasts are not bacteria, they are fungi (mostly ascomycetes).

 

yes, misplaced hyphen caused confusion there. Last I heard, Phytphthora was termed a FLO fungus-like organism, too, but that may have changed, and does not seem so important anyway.

 

"- The rhizoid structures in the fourth photo (page 36) don't look like rhizomorphs to me, but have the characteristics of secundary root formation "tapping" the energy rich ooze

 

there are both rootlets and what strongly resemble armillaria rhizomporphs--black brittle structures with more perpendicular branching than roots typically do. that image taken near fresh and severe construction damage. insect organisms tap that ooze routinely--seldom is adventitious rooting evident near frothy flux ime. image in pdf is poor--more easily seen in hard copy.

 

"to facilitate the formation of callus to close the wound, a phenomenon I have often assessed and documented (with photo's) in trees attacked by (rhizomorphs of) Armillaria.

 

yes adventitious rooting not uncommon around wounds of all origins, or in any dark moist condition where composted OM is present. and i agree the result is faster closure, though it may be teleological to say that was the purpose.

 

Thanks for the reply: I could learn a lot from European trees, and will next spring.

[Fungus]

1. ... Quercus species, such as Q. alba, Q. phellos, Q. stellata or Q. montana ... true enough, though they are still Quercus, in similar landscapes and at similar latitudes. Mycorrhizae may be important but whether they are a determining factor in all pathology is unclear to me ... tree species specific ectomycorrhizal macrofungi ... In the course of treatment we add air and OM to the soil to foster these, and observe growth aka informal monitoring, but no names are assigned; beyond my expertise ... so far the trees recover without such analysis.

2. No lab assessment done ... I replied on the reference which I consider the best in north america ... I'm trained to let facts drive theory ...

3. ... high-nitrogen fertilization ??? The lawns these trees grow in are seldom fertilized, and many infected trees are in unferitlized natural areas, so I am not sure what you refer to. At UNC campus they may broadcast some N, and i do agree trees would be more resistant if mulched, but N is not a factor in many cases.

4. ... killed the tree species specific ectomycorrhizal symbionts first, which was detrimental to the nutrients and water supply of the tree and left the root system unprotected for invasions of parasites such as Armillaria and soil pathogens, after which Phytophthora "thrived" ? ... sorry but the facts do not fit this theory. Also, Phytophthora in the se usa is not virulent.

5. Last I heard, Phytphthora was termed a FLO fungus-like organism, too, but that may have changed, and does not seem so important anyway.

6. The rhizoid structures in the fourth photo don't look like rhizomorphs to me, but have the characteristics of secundary root formation "tapping" the energy rich ooze ... there are both rootlets and what strongly resemble Armillaria rhizomorphs--black brittle structures with more perpendicular branching than roots typically do ... seldom is adventitious rooting evident near frothy flux ime.

7. ... to facilitate the formation of callus to close the wound ... and i agree the result is faster closure, though it may be teleological to say that was the purpose.

 

Guy,

Let me start with adding some more information on my line of research on "frothy flux" and the association with parasitic Armillaria species on Q. robur and Q. rubra. The trees in the survey were all located at rather close distance (root-root contact) in lanes and verges alongside paved or dirt roads and pathways in parks. Because of limited rooting space, soil compaction and nitrification, tree species specific ectomycorrhizal macrofungi were hardly ever present and were substituted by generalistic symbionts associating with all kinds of deciduous and coniferous trees, implying the tree species specific soil food webs were poorly developed and the functioning of the defensive and water and nutrients supply and assimilation system was severely reduced.

1. Tree species specific ecosystems with tree species specific soil food webs including tree species specific ectomycorrhizal symbionts are at the core of the life cycle dependend health and condition of trees such as Quercus species. Besides, within the same tree genus, there can be significant differences in tree species specific ectomycorrhizal symbionts and saprotrophic and/or parasitic macrofungi, which is demonstrated by Q. rubra, which has been introduced in The Netherlands 100+ years ago, only being capable of associating with less then 70 % of the tree species specific ectomycorrhizal macrofungi associated with Q. robur, not being colonized by a parasite such as Fistulina hepatica and being much faster colonized by Laetiporus sulphureus or Daedalea quercina with far more short term detrimental effects.

2. Without microscopical identification and assessment of the pathogens, the validity of your "facts driven" field research theory is rather poor, as research done without proper assessment, identification and monitoring of generalistic and/or tree species specific ectomycorrizal macrofungi and their presence or absence in specific periods of the life cycles of the trees is speculative and not much contributing to our understanding of the tree species specific ecosystems and the interactions of their pathogens and symbionts and/or the agents facilitating the recovery of infected tree species.

3. Quote : "Fertilization of diseased plants has recently become highly controversial. Some large declining oaks that received a "stress treatment" of high-nitrogen fertilizer into the soil looked great after a year afterward. Soon after they succumbed to Phytophthora and other decay organisms that thrive on excess nitrogen" (page 36).

4. Which facts do not fit what theory or hypothesis by whom and as an outcome of what scientific research ? And Phytophthora ramorum not being "virulent" ? What about the thousands of larches and rhododendrons dying and oaks succumbing because of Sudden Oak Death ?

5. Phytophthora is an Oömycete.

6. Did you microscopically check the presence of whitish or hyaline hyphae inside the black brittle structures you claim to be rhizomorphs ?

7. In biology, nothing ever is the "purpose", calling "behavior" of trees and other living organisms besides human beings purposeful and intentional is a form of anthropomorphism.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Fungus

[treeseer]

Gerritt, this is far off the radar now but a quick reply:

 

1. Tree species specific ecosystems with tree species specific soil food webs including tree species specific ectomycorrhizal symbionts are at the core of the life cycle dependend health and condition of trees such as Quercus species. Besides, within the same tree genus, there can be significant differences in tree species specific ectomycorrhizal symbionts and saprotrophic and/or parasitic macrofungi, which is demonstrated by Q. rubra, which has been introduced in The Netherlands 100+ years ago, only being capable of associating with less then 70 % of the tree species specific ectomycorrhizal macrofungi associated with Q. robur, not being colonized by a parasite such as Fistulina hepatica and being much faster colonized by Laetiporus sulphureus or Daedalea quercina with far more short term detrimental effects.

 

can't follow a 10-line sentence too well, but this points up continental differences; D quercina very weak here. in general as an arborist my focus is the tree and I see yours is on the fungus and I am keen to learn more about that, to balance out my bias, which seems like a good idea.

 

2. Without microscopical identification and assessment of the pathogens, the validity of your "facts driven" field research theory is rather poor, as research done without proper assessment, identification and monitoring of generalistic and/or tree species specific ectomycorrizal macrofungi and their presence or absence in specific periods of the life cycles of the trees is speculative and not much contributing to our understanding of the tree species specific ecosystems and the interactions of their pathogens and symbionts and/or the agents facilitating the recovery of infected tree species.

 

reminder; as an arborist i am treating trees. protocol is successful and has no pretension of it being based on mycological research. nor need it be: my clients care about what works on their trees, and so do i.

 

3. Quote : "Fertilization of diseased plants has recently become highly controversial. Some large declining oaks that received a "stress treatment" of high-nitrogen fertilizer into the soil looked great after a year afterward. Soon after they succumbed to Phytophthora and other decay organisms that thrive on excess nitrogen" (page 36).

 

Yes that was the reason that N not applied; we seem to be talking past each other here...

 

4. Which facts do not fit what theory or hypothesis by whom and as an outcome of what scientific research ?

 

facts can be confirmed in practice. All research may be science but not all science is research.

 

"And Phytophthora ramorum not being "virulent" ?

 

please sir i did not say ramorum and i did say "in se usa"; we cannot communicate if we do not maintain some accuracy in quotations.

 

5. Phytophthora is an Oömycete.

 

ok

 

6. Did you microscopically check the presence of whitish or hyaline hyphae inside the black brittle structures you claim to be rhizomorphs ?

 

no but i did use a hand lens, and my fingers to snap them. my methods are not sophisticated now, but they were downright primitive in 2004.

 

7. In biology, nothing ever is the "purpose", calling "behavior" of trees and other living organisms besides human beings purposeful and intentional is a form of anthropomorphism.

 

hence my gentle correction of your ""tapping" the energy rich ooze to facilitate the formation of callus to close the wound" statement, which seemed literally teleological/anthropomorphic in ascribing a purpose. That seemed to zip right by your notice, but it's not fair for me to critique english usage with a dutchman; my apologies.

 

Soil microflora are very important to trees yes but they are not all there is to consider, and lectures on same or biology in general do not always fit the topic. As our experiences and observations are on separate continents and species they may both be right so let's leave it at that.

[Fungus]

... far off the radar ...

- "Tree species specific ecosystems ... tree species specific soil food webs ... tree species specific ectomycorrhizal symbionts ... tree species specific life cycles ... within the same tree genus, there can be significant differences in tree species specific ectomycorrhizal symbionts and saprotrophic and/or parasitic macrofungi" :

1. ... in general as an arborist my focus is the tree and I see yours is on the fungus ... reminder; as an arborist i am treating trees ...

 

- " Did you microscopically check the presence of whitish or hyaline hyphae inside the black brittle structures you claim to be rhizomorphs ?" :

2. ... no but i did use a hand lens, and my fingers to snap them. my methods are not sophisticated now, but they were downright primitive in 2004.

 

- "And Phytophthora ramorum not being "virulent" ?

3. ... i did not say ramorum ...

 

- "In biology, nothing ever is the "purpose", calling "behavior" of trees and other living organisms besides human beings purposeful and intentional is a form of anthropomorphism." :

4. ... correction of your "tapping" the energy rich ooze to facilitate the formation of callus to close the wound statement, which seemed literally teleological/anthropomorphic in ascribing a purpose ... english ... dutchman ...

 

Guy,

My apologies too . No offence meant, just correcting invalid methods of assessment or (field) "research" and jumping to conclusions based on non-scientific data derived from a limited perspective, that's all, so also an even shorter reply in return.

 

1. Wrong conclusion. As a forest ecologist and mycologist, my focus is on the total tree species specific ecosystem and its soil food web, including relevant parasitic, saprotrophic and symbiotic macrofungi and other organisms, not on the trees, nor on the fungi alone, but on all of the contextual or "holistic" (Gestalt) (eco)system aspects (habitat, niche), without which IMO a complete and valid analysis of the health or condition of a tree can not be made.

 

2. You can see and identify 1-2 µm wide hyphae with a hand lense ?

 

3. Correct, you said Phytophthora (in general), which includes P. ramorum.

 

4. I thought, that quotation marks or inverted comma's are not only used for citations, but that a word between "..." in both languages also means : not literally to be understood as such.

 

So let's agree to disagree and leave it at that .

[treeseer]

All good, Gerritt,

 

" No offence meant, just correcting invalid methods of assessment or (field) "research" and jumping to conclusions based on non-scientific data derived from a limited perspective, that's all, so also an even shorter reply in return.

 

Some offence still taken frankly--my objective was managing the trees for the clients. methods valid for that purpose imho. Data very scientific and valid for that limited purpose--i shan't be sending this in for a journal publication. Research and science are not synonymous.

 

1. Wrong conclusion. As a forest ecologist and mycologist, my focus is on the total tree species specific ecosystem and its soil food web, including relevant parasitic, saprotrophic and symbiotic macrofungi and other organisms, not on the trees, nor on the fungi alone, but on all of the contextual or "holistic" (Gestalt) (eco)system aspects (habitat, niche), without which IMO a complete and valid analysis of the health or condition of a tree can not be made.

 

Was my work complete in the ecological context, no. Valid, yes indeed. I need not assess entire soil food web or continental or global or galactic context to draw a valid conclusion, do I? .

 

2. You can see and identify 1-2 µm wide hyphae with a hand lense ?

 

No I did not see the inner hyphal strand and I do thank you very much for the clue to look for it. Next time i will collect and look under microscope.

 

3. Correct, you said Phytophthora (in general), which includes P. ramorum.

 

thank you for the retraction.

 

"So let's agree to disagree and leave it at that

 

I'd like to think we went beyond that. Our differing experiences are primarily regional, which cannot be changed, but can be instructive. But our approaches and biases can be adjusted, or why even bother logging into a site like this? Teaching may take place, which is very useful, but preaching is best saved for other venues.

 

So I'll avoid seizing this bully pulpit to preach arboriculture to mycologists and ecologists, and hope the favor will be returned. The truth about the frothy flux phenomenon lies somewhere between or beyond our differing continental views. There's always more to know.