Managing Trees with Decay & Dysfunction

[treeseer]

Gerrit, your ears have not been slapped. Nothing here that is not in Diseases of Trees and Shrubs, Cornell U.

 

Observations: lesions rarely dry up and close on their own.

 

Observations: treated lesions very often dry up and close. Re-treated lesions are usually much smaller, and also have a high closure rate.

 

Observations: Bark that oozes and smells of skunky beer is considered infectious. The smell is often from organic acids produced by bacteria. Adjacent areas tend to get those symptoms, and die.

 

Soil amendments and aeration are part of the treatment package, but it's less work and more effective to just replace as much soil as possible. It's been demonstrated and I believe published in the UK. For the tree, these treatments are standard, and usually effective.

From the point of view of the fungi and bacteria, these treatments are destructive.

 

Depends on your point of view, doesn't it?

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Gerrit, your ears have not been slapped. Nothing here that is not in Diseases of Trees and Shrubs, Cornell U.

 

Observations: lesions rarely dry up and close on their own.

 

Observations: treated lesions very often dry up and close. Re-treated lesions are usually much smaller, and also have a high closure rate.

 

Observations: Bark that oozes and smells of skunky beer is considered infectious. The smell is often from organic acids produced by bacteria. Adjacent areas tend to get those symptoms, and die.

 

Soil amendments and aeration are part of the treatment package, but it's less work and more effective to just replace as much soil as possible. It's been demonstrated and I believe published in the UK. For the tree, these treatments are standard, and usually effective.

From the point of view of the fungi and bacteria, these treatments are destructive.

 

Depends on your point of view, doesn't it?

 

Your digging a whole for sure, your doing work to trees without even diagnosing the cause of the lesions for a start, and making dangerous assumptions on the potential of the symptoms to be infectious.

 

Im not suggesting I have the ultimate answer to this and a suitable treatment, but I certainly wouldnt be doing ANYTHING without first fully understanding what organisms and problems exist.

 

I suggest you speak to Dr Olaf about how he is dealing with it.

 

Guy, I dont like giving anyone a hard time, it makes me look like an arse, but you should know much better than this.

[Fungus]

1. Observations: Bark that oozes and smells of skunky beer is considered infectious. The smell is often from organic acids produced by bacteria. Adjacent areas tend to get those symptoms, and die.

2. From the point of view of the fungi and bacteria, these treatments are destructive.

 

1. Who's observations and considered by who ? As always, just yours I assume ? Did you assess and identify the bacteria responsible for the production of the organic acids ? Did you exclude the smell of skunky beer being present because of acids produced by the tree itself and oozed as a reaction to an infection with Armillaria ? And did you exclude Phytophthora as the pathogen responsible for the black oozing ?

2. Now there's good news. So you have succeeded in effectively destroying pathogens such as Pseudomonas, Phytophthora, Chalara and Armillaria ?

[treeseer]

Again with the tag team. Okay,

 

" ... your doing work to trees without even diagnosing the cause of the lesions for a start..."

 

The process of diagnosis is underway, but hampered by my ignorance of how to ID the cause of the lesions. If you can point me to a reference, that would be great.

 

"and making dangerous assumptions on the potential of the symptoms to be infectious."

 

When one sees dead tissue spreading, one can assume it was and is being killed; the cause of the signs (not symptoms) of disease is considered infectious, because it killed, and is killing, tree tissue.

 

"Im not suggesting I have the ultimate answer to this and a suitable treatment, but I certainly wouldnt be doing ANYTHING without first fully understanding what organisms and problems exist."

 

Really? So you won't be pruning any trees before this full understanding is reached? Time to set the saw down, then, unless by "full" you mean "adequate".

 

"I suggest you speak to Dr Olaf about how he is dealing with it."

 

Thanks; i'll try knocking at that door.

 

1. Who's observations and considered by who ? As always, just yours I assume ?

 

As usual, I'm the one assigned to care for the tree, and I consult available references first and throughout treatment. Hence my post to the helpful colleagues at arbtalk!

 

"Did you assess and identify the bacteria responsible for the production of the organic acids ?"

 

References indicate a 'cocktail' of organisms typically at work. Labs in the past have been unable to ID an agent. So no, I do not submit a sample every time.

 

" Did you exclude the smell of skunky beer being present because of acids produced by the tree itself and oozed as a reaction to an infection with Armillaria ?"

 

No, nor did I exclude the possibility of a beer truck overturning. There were no signs of either.

 

"And did you exclude Phytophthora as the pathogen responsible for the black oozing ?"

 

Not at all; rather, I suspect it is at least partially responsible.

 

"...So you have succeeded in effectively destroying pathogens such as Pseudomonas, Phytophthora, Chalara and Armillaria ?"

 

No such exaggerated claim. I only remove *dead* tissue, breaking no barriers, and dry out the margins. The tree puts on healthy growth, closing the wounds. Where is the problem

 

When there's a reliable way to tell what has caused a particular bleeding lesion, I'll be very glad to hear of it, and pursue identification.

 

When there's a better way to manage a problem that has killed all the cambium and other parenchyma in an area, to at least lessen the odds of it spreading, I'll use it. If any of these treatments are covered in adequate detail in your encyclopedia, I'll buy it!

 

Thanks for your comments.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Again with the tag team. Okay,

 

" ... your doing work to trees without even diagnosing the cause of the lesions for a start..."

 

The process of diagnosis is underway, but hampered by my ignorance of how to ID the cause of the lesions. If you can point me to a reference, that would be great.

 

"and making dangerous assumptions on the potential of the symptoms to be infectious."

 

When one sees dead tissue spreading, one can assume it was and is being killed; the cause of the signs (not symptoms) of disease is considered infectious, because it killed, and is killing, tree tissue.

 

"Im not suggesting I have the ultimate answer to this and a suitable treatment, but I certainly wouldnt be doing ANYTHING without first fully understanding what organisms and problems exist."

 

Really? So you won't be pruning any trees before this full understanding is reached? Time to set the saw down, then, unless by "full" you mean "adequate".

 

"I suggest you speak to Dr Olaf about how he is dealing with it."

 

Thanks; i'll try knocking at that door.

 

1. Who's observations and considered by who ? As always, just yours I assume ?

 

As usual, I'm the one assigned to care for the tree, and I consult available references first and throughout treatment. Hence my post to the helpful colleagues at arbtalk!

 

"Did you assess and identify the bacteria responsible for the production of the organic acids ?"

 

References indicate a 'cocktail' of organisms typically at work. Labs in the past have been unable to ID an agent. So no, I do not submit a sample every time.

 

" Did you exclude the smell of skunky beer being present because of acids produced by the tree itself and oozed as a reaction to an infection with Armillaria ?"

 

No, nor did I exclude the possibility of a beer truck overturning. There were no signs of either.

 

"And did you exclude Phytophthora as the pathogen responsible for the black oozing ?"

 

Not at all; rather, I suspect it is at least partially responsible.

 

"...So you have succeeded in effectively destroying pathogens such as Pseudomonas, Phytophthora, Chalara and Armillaria ?"

 

No such exaggerated claim. I only remove *dead* tissue, breaking no barriers, and dry out the margins. The tree puts on healthy growth, closing the wounds. Where is the problem

 

When there's a reliable way to tell what has caused a particular bleeding lesion, I'll be very glad to hear of it, and pursue identification.

 

When there's a better way to manage a problem that has killed all the cambium and other parenchyma in an area, to at least lessen the odds of it spreading, I'll use it. If any of these treatments are covered in adequate detail in your encyclopedia, I'll buy it!

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

take a small ore from the infected material and look for mycelia in the vessels my dear man, using a scope, of course. No ones tag teaming here, i answer to no one and have no affiliations, my opinions are my own, it just so happens that gerrits opinion is from a similar point of view, what YOU call fungicentric.

 

I try to help, but you fail to hear me!

[Fungus]

1. Again with the tag team.

 

2. Who's observations and considered by who ? As always, just yours I assume ?

As usual, I'm the one assigned to care for the tree, and I consult available references first and throughout treatment. Hence my post to the helpful colleagues at arbtalk!

 

3. "Did you assess and identify the bacteria responsible for the production of the organic acids ?"

References indicate a 'cocktail' of organisms typically at work. Labs in the past have been unable to ID an agent. So no, I do not submit a sample every time.

 

4. " Did you exclude the smell of skunky beer being present because of acids produced by the tree itself and oozed as a reaction to an infection with Armillaria ?"

There were no signs of either.

 

5. "And did you exclude Phytophthora as the pathogen responsible for the black oozing ?"

Not at all; rather, I suspect it is at least partially responsible.

 

6. When there's a reliable way to tell what has caused a particular bleeding lesion, I'll be very glad to hear of it, and pursue identification.

 

1. A bit paranoid are you ? No tag team, just the only two members left on Arbtalk that still react to your posts to warn others not to act on your "expertise".

2. As I said before, just two of them left and one down, because I don't consider myself to be your colleague.

3. I thought you identified a bacteria as the pathogen, so a cocktail of what and assessed by who ?

4. How do you assess an Armillaria infection without using a microscope ?

5. So now it's not just an unidentified bacteria, but a cocktail including Phytophthora too ?

6. There are several reliable ways to tell what causes a particular bleeding, but one needs diagnostic skills, test kits, a microscope and a laboratory to identify the pathogen.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

1. A bit paranoid are you ? No tag team, just the only two members left on Arbtalk that still react to your posts to warn others not to act on your "expertise".

2. As I said before, just two of them left and one down, because I don't consider myself to be your colleague.

3. I thought you identified a bacteria as the pathogen, so a cocktail of what and assessed by who ?

4. How do you assess an Armillaria infection without using a microscope ?

5. So now it's not just an unidentified bacteria, but a cocktail including Phytophthora too ?

6. There are several reliable ways to tell what causes a particular bleeding, but one needs diagnostic skills, test kits, a microscope and a laboratory to identify the pathogen.

 

and that is the long and short of it guy, whether you like it or not, and we have said it before:001_huh:

[treeseer]

Not claiming expertise; just showing results.

 

You're right; ecologists are barely related to arborists, all too often.

 

i'll take it down to the local U; thanks.

[RobArb]

I love these tet a tet's *(sp)!

 

Sent from Rob's GalaxySII

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

I love these tet a tet's *(sp)!

 

Sent from Rob's GalaxySII

 

I dont, but repeated myself over and over is even more annoying!

 

The fact is we arbs need to get scoped up to play these kind of diagnostic games, wether were looking at ganos, bleeds, mycorrhizea etc etc etc.

 

otherwise its all opinion and speculation, and on that basis, its a question of whos opinion, ability/reliability & reputation you wanna take?

 

no dont look at me, im shy!