Mycorrhiza

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Interesting, I wonder what the other benefits are to the fungi giving up phosphorus for no carbs is gaining, or if it is being 'fooled' into the deal somehow? Also by what biological process is the best 'exchange rate' from whom determined?

 

 

good question!

[Fungus]

Interesting, I wonder what the other benefits are to the fungi giving up phosphorus for no carbs is gaining, or if it is being 'fooled' into the deal somehow? Also by what biological process is the best 'exchange rate' from whom determined?

 

Sloth,

The researchers didn't answer these questions, so one can only speculate about what the benefits are and the best "exchange" rate is.

One can, however, without a doubt assume, that within the soil food web there is lots of "cheating", "trickery" and "fooling" others for own gain and territorial warfare going on, as is demonstrated by a parasitic Armillaria species, that as a wolf in sheep's clothes, mimicks the "communication" feromones of ectomycorrhizal macrofungi to be allowed to make superficial contact with the tree root and than invades the living tissue cells and kills them.

And another example is found in Pleurotus ostreatus, Panellus stipticus, Hohenbuehelia species and the anamorphs of Orbilia species sending out lasso's or sticky buds on a hyphae from their below ground level mycelia to catch and devour nematodes with.

So one can safely conclude, that there isn't such a thing as altruism in the world of the soil food web species.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Fungus

[DWOM]

Great thread. Loads of good info.

 

I love using Mycorrhizal and bacterial amendments on my veg patch. We run a minimum till system and mulch out beds furiously this seems to have kept populations thriving since the initial application. The improvement after the first year in yield, vigour and resistance and taste was enormous and have continued to improve as the beds age and we add organic matter. We've added a good amount of rockdust too, found that minerals are generally lacking in most soils that are used for food production and applying rockdust at an appropriate rate has boosted soil life no end! I do however see how applying them to long life perennials is not appropriate and will upset associations already formed or those to be formed.

 

I do have a question tho regarding young tree inoculation with mushroom producing ectomycorrhizal. Either via root-zone injection of a live culture or spore slurry. If the trees were grown in a lively soil, full of endo and microbial life and teeming with available associations, would it be a fruitless task to try and introduce mycelium or spores of a locally cloned ectomycorrhizal? How do the associations built at the nursery stage stand up after transplanting the tree? These fungi are becoming rarer by the year, due to over picking or increasing environmental degradation. I understand that the best way to build these associations is to plant an appropriate species at a known site and then transplant a number of years later. Which is why I am asking about doing it in a more controlled way. If mycelium or spores are available and can be applied to areas regularly, could you see similar success as these 'natural' transplants?

 

Just ignore me if I'm talking rubbish

Edited February 10, 2012 by DWOM
cl

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Great thread. Loads of good info.

 

I love using Mycorrhizal and bacterial amendments on my veg patch. We run a minimum till system and mulch out beds furiously this seems to have kept populations thriving since the initial application. The improvement after the first year in yield, vigour and resistance and taste was enormous and have continued to improve as the beds age and we add organic matter. We've added a good amount of rockdust too, found that minerals are generally lacking in most soils that are used for food production and applying rockdust at an appropriate rate has boosted soil life no end! I do however see how applying them to long life perennials is not appropriate and will upset associations already formed or those to be formed.

 

I do have a question tho regarding young tree inoculation with mushroom producing ectomycorrhizal. Either via root-zone injection of a live culture or spore slurry. If the trees were grown in a lively soil, full of endo and microbial life and teeming with available associations, would it be a fruitless task to try and introduce mycelium or spores of a locally cloned ectomycorrhizal? How do the associations built at the nursery stage stand up after transplanting the tree? These fungi are becoming rarer by the year, due to over picking or increasing environmental degradation. I understand that the best way to build these associations is to plant an appropriate species at a known site and then transplant a number of years later. Which is why I am asking about doing it in a more controlled way. If mycelium or spores are available and can be applied to areas regularly, could you see similar success as these 'natural' transplants?

 

Just ignore me if I'm talking rubbish

 

if there is good presence why inoculate, if not definitely a good plan but one would need to choose the species well for the given soil tree combination and ensure that the soil structure and microbial sustaining qualities are all there first or pointless exercises.

[DWOM]

if there is good presence why inoculate, if not definitely a good plan but one would need to choose the species well for the given soil tree combination and ensure that the soil structure and microbial sustaining qualities are all there first or pointless exercises.

 

I guess what I'm getting at is the grand idea of a symbiotic tree and fungi nursery where not only soil dwelling endomycorrhizal and bacterial associations can form from germination, but also fruiting ecto species and maybe specifically, edibles. Could be undertaken in a back garden, or scaled up for tree nurseries.

 

What you say about it being a pointless exercise is kinda why I'm asking. If the right controls were in place regarding soil type and species selection in the nursery. Particularly with a view to the transplant site. Would it still be a waste of time? Is the only realistic option to use existing sites as seats of regeneration?

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

I guess what I'm getting at is the grand idea of a symbiotic tree and fungi nursery where not only soil dwelling endomycorrhizal and bacterial associations can form from germination, but also fruiting ecto species and maybe specifically, edibles. Could be undertaken in a back garden, or scaled up for tree nurseries.

 

What you say about it being a pointless exercise is kinda why I'm asking. If the right controls were in place regarding soil type and species selection in the nursery. Particularly with a view to the transplant site. Would it still be a waste of time? Is the only realistic option to use existing sites as seats of regeneration?

 

If you wanted to plant your nursery stock in a sssi for instance it might be unwise to introduce non local strains of fungi.

 

I think inoculation is better than no inoculation put it that way, just thst many products that are sold are for want of a better word unsatisfactory, if only from the information and research/effectiveness is concerned.

 

there needs to be more work done in this area, personly i think an organic nursery with stock growing in the woods with "parental" support would do well in the market place:thumbup1:

[DWOM]

If you wanted to plant your nursery stock in a sssi for instance it might be unwise to introduce non local strains of fungi.

 

I think inoculation is better than no inoculation put it that way, just thst many products that are sold are for want of a better word unsatisfactory, if only from the information and research/effectiveness is concerned.

 

there needs to be more work done in this area, personly i think an organic nursery with stock growing in the woods with "parental" support would do well in the market place:thumbup1:

 

Yeah, forest nursery's with soil and association as their main aims would be just the ticket. I guess I want to take that a step further with ecologically, visually, culinary and medicinally important native species. There is enormous complexity to deal with, but my tiny mind is saying its possible. You can get most clones running mycelium on agar, so fine tuning live cultures for each species shouldn't be hard. With a big enough fridge, the right data and some dedication it's surely worth a go. At least for local soil types and species.

 

Just thinking about regeneration of biodiversity, and how much such complexity and such and expanse of time can really be influenced and guided by us as more becomes known about their world.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Yeah, forest nursery's with soil and association as their main aims would be just the ticket. I guess I want to take that a step further with ecologically, visually, culinary and medicinally important native species. There is enormous complexity to deal with, but my tiny mind is saying its possible. You can get most clones running mycelium on agar, so fine tuning live cultures for each species shouldn't be hard. With a big enough fridge, the right data and some dedication it's surely worth a go. At least for local soil types and species.

 

Just thinking about regeneration of biodiversity, and how much such complexity and such and expanse of time can really be influenced and guided by us as more becomes known about their world.

 

I understand what you are hinting at, and I would condone that absolutely. Gerrit has a much better idea about what fungi associate with trees at what stage, as you know fungi tend to be succsessional, so its by no means an easy task.

 

Definitely worth a go, we wont get anywhere till we start trying.

[Fungus]

a step further with ecologically, visually, culinary and medicinally important native species. There is enormous complexity to deal with ... clones running mycelium on agar

 

There has already been spend millions of dollars trying to do this by the only commercially motivated "mycorrhiza" industry, so if you would succeed in effectively "breeding" this type of ectomycorrhizal macrofungi at low costs, you would be a multimillionaire within a few years .

[DWOM]

There has already been spend millions of dollars trying to do this by the only commercially motivated "mycorrhiza" industry, so if you would succeed in effectively "breeding" this type of ectomycorrhizal macrofungi at low costs, you would be a multimillionaire within a few years .

 

I understand what you are saying Fungus. I have read your posts in this thread and others, and I can assure you that I'm not coming at this from a commercial angle, nor am I interested in the pursuit of wealth at all. In fact I would go so far as to say that the success of something like this, lies with the exact opposite. I don't expect to see much of what I want to create in my lifetime, but it would be nice to pass on improved soil, increased biomass and diversity rather than accumulated paper wealth to the earth and my family. Even on the tiny scale that I can muster. If 100yrs down the line something that I did comes to fruition of finally has a purpose, I see that as a result.

 

 

Definitely worth a go, we wont get anywhere till we start trying.

 

This is how I see it. I am an tree man at heart and forest eco-systems are where my real interest lies. Not just the wild primary systems, but utilised and locally managed for food, fuel, medicine and product. Sustainability has been bastardised, only sun cycles and the systems that operate to this rhythm can be sustainable.