V.T.A symptoms "the chatty trees"

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

I bet the most arborists, let alone tree services, in the world have never looked at ancient or even old trees and studied them. This forum, and a couple others, are populated by a few hundred arborist that are at the forfront of knowledge gathering. Thus I am preaching to the converted but we must learn more about trees if our goal is to save them and we must spread the word. Unless we study trees at all ages it is hard to understand trees.

 

You photos are really quite incredible and a very important learning tool. Studing them (and the trees themselves) is what ever arborist should be doing if they want to do more than removals.

 

i will be getting to the post you made shortly, I am currently sorting images to add to the reply, but the above comments are very much appreciated.

[RobArb]

haha i wasn't asking for a loan hama:lol:

 

shame on me really for not making that extra effort to read them, i'll make it my mission once my next assignment is finished and done!

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

"You are going to have to bring something more to this table if you want to convince me that these forks are not dangerous."

 

It is not a case of these forks being dangerous or not, it is a matter of degrees, all limbs will eventually fail. My belief is that if we always approach a tree and identify the defects during a risk assesment we are destined for the road of removal. Just the mere mention of "risk" assessment puts a negative mark against a tree, then add in the cumulative totals of risks involved and you have decision makers running scared.

 

Yes im with you totally regarding the degrees, so many factors involved, and why it stuns me that people with very little knowledge are allowed to go out and do "drive by VTA's" etc. I dont like most of the current statistical methods of quantitative evaluation of what is a dynamic and living thing which is still largely mis understood or studied in the kind of naturally empathic detail required.

 

You must not only assess the location of the tree but perhaps more importantly the severity of the defect found. In the case of a V-crotch you need to look at size, cross-sectional areas, ears, included bark, verticalness of the stems, stems crossing side to side, wind exposure, decay etc.. When you have done this you then need to compare it with your knowledge and any literature you have. This will help to determine the likelihood of failure and perhaps under what conditions.

 

And herein lies a major problem, there is so little reference material avaliable that inspires a level of confidence within the practitioner, and really the only way to gain this "empathy" for the subject is to love the woods and know them intimately. There are many who claim to know trees, and many who claim to be experts (is there such a thing) but there really is nothing better to hone ones "connection" or understanding of trees than to seek them out with love and passion and to find enlightenment and with it the insight required to truly know trees. it is exactly this Im sure that Shigo meant when he said "Go out and touch trees.

 

Prescriptions are then able to be formulated. Again experience and knowledge is paramont. In small trees can you remove one side of the bifurcation? Is cabling and bracing needed? Is thinning best? Is topping called for? Is crown-reduction needed, To what degree is a treatment called for?

 

 

 

I know that most of my competitors would remove virtually ever tree you have shown, yet these trees have survived decades (or more) with the defect.

 

I believe there is no simple answer to determining the liklihood of failure in these trees but we can certainly make far more informed choices by doing the studing such as you have.

 

Mutse atsi mr tree

 

I bet the most arborists, let alone tree services, in the world have never looked at ancient or even old trees and studied them. This forum, and a couple others, are populated by a few hundred arborist that are at the forfront of knowledge gathering. Thus I am preaching to the converted but we must learn more about trees if our goal is to save them and we must spread the word. Unless we study trees at all ages it is hard to understand trees.

 

As you have noticed, this is something some of us are indeed working VERY hard at, and I am glad to say the response is overwhelming. It is encoursaging to know that all you have to do is open the doors and the will follow.

 

You photos are really quite incredible and a very important learning tool. Studing them (and the trees themselves) is what ever arborist should be doing if they want to do more than removals.

 

I try to take as many people out with me as i can, and for those who cant get there, well its dark and i can share via this medium:thumbup1:

 

Now then, lets get some more useful images up

Edited February 23, 2011 by Tony Croft aka hamadryad

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

here are some more images of compression forks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RobArb]

what be the difference between a tension fork and a compression fork or have i just made that up??

 

i promise to go read that book now:blushing:

 

 

 

 

 

 

ps 1,000th post:thumbup:

[David Humphries]

:

 

ps 1,000th post:thumbup:

 

 

 

Woohoo, look at you and ya big number

 

 

 

Long way to go till your half as sad as some of us

 

 

 

.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

what be the difference between a tension fork and a compression fork or have i just made that up??

 

i promise to go read that book now:blushing:

 

ps 1,000th post:thumbup:

 

Well.seems its time to add the tension fork! The compression fork is found in the forest, where competition forces trees into inclinations beyond 20 degrees. tension forks form in trees that are less crowded and have wider more optimal multi stem formations. this image from Hatfield forest is a tension fork, that is to say the forces are pure tension, from weight pulling them apart.

 

The compression fork differs in that it has a bark inclusion, and is also being compressed against its twin stem by growth stress.

 

A tension fork/union.

 

This one is a strong union, but this tree has Inonotus dryadeus which will cause a cone shaped cavity in the lower stem, which due to the height of the union will weaken the centre region of the union and may well in an advanced state cause this union to tear apart as the centre fibres are altered.

[RobArb]

i daren't post now so to not spoil my nice neat post number.....

 

doh...

 

 

anyway back to my question before i get accused of derailing:blushing:

what be the difference between a tension fork and a compression fork or have i just made that up??

[RobArb]

i daren't post now so to not spoil my nice neat post number.....

 

doh...

 

 

anyway back to my question before i get accused of derailing:blushing:

 

ignore me i obviously didn't wait long enough for the answer, i blame monkey he distracted me!!

[RobArb]

Well.seems its time to add the tension fork! The compression fork is found in the forest, where competition forces trees into inclinations beyond 20 degrees. tension forks form in trees that are less crowded and have wider more optimal multi stem formations. this image from Hatfield forest is a tension fork, that is to say the forces are pure tension, from weight pulling them apart.

 

The compression fork differs in that it has a bark inclusion, and is also being compressed against its twin stem by growth stress.

 

A tension fork/union.

 

This one is a strong union, but this tree has Inonotus dryadeus which will cause a cone shaped cavity in the lower stem, which due to the height of the union will weaken the centre region of the union and may well in an advanced state cause this union to tear apart as the centre fibres are altered.

 

cheers hama:thumbup:

 

i learn more everyday reading these threads:001_cool: