Unlawful work to TPO'd tree

[daltontrees]

14 hours ago, Chris at eden said:

The open space isn’t adopted according to the OP so not council owned.  Councils only adopt a POS once the development is complete and as long as it meets the required standard.  Loads end up left with the developer which seems to be what has happened here. Sometimes the developers cease trading and the land reverts to the crown and becomes a right pain in the ass as no one will take responsibility. 

Just as often (up here anyway) the open spaces are transferred to the residents as common property, to be managed by the residents or a factor. I am very very reluctantly the chair of our residents association and I caught a guy decking 5 big poplars on our land during lockdown (planted 40 years ago to satisfy planning  conditions). Fortunately the surrounding residents and co-owners were just as pleased to see the sun as he was, so I am sure there would have been a conspiracy of silence about who did it had I not actually heard the chainsaws blazing and gone out to see what was going on.

[daltontrees]

1 hour ago, Chris at eden said:

Two problems here.  
 

1.  Someone built a housing estate there recently. It can’t be unregistered. It’s either withe the developer or transferred with one of the houses. Or with the LA and the OP has it wrong. 
 

2.  Ownership makes absolutely no difference to prosecution. It’s still a criminal offence. The LPA can still prosecute the tree surgeon and the person instructing the works  even if they don’t own it.  
 

Or (see my post above) it's transferred to all the owners. Maybe that's just a scottish thing?

[Chris at eden]

1 hour ago, daltontrees said:

Or (see my post above) it's transferred to all the owners. Maybe that's just a scottish thing?

I worked as a TO for two different authorities for over 18 years and never saw a POS transferred to the locals.  Its not  bad idea though.  The last place I worked had a load of land that had reverted to crown ownership as the developer went bump.  It was a complete nightmare getting any one to deal with it.  Folk just thoiught it reverted to the LPA due to the TPO.  

 

[daltontrees]

11 minutes ago, Chris at eden said:

I worked as a TO for two different authorities for over 18 years and never saw a POS transferred to the locals.  Its not  bad idea though.  The last place I worked had a load of land that had reverted to crown ownership as the developer went bump.  It was a complete nightmare getting any one to deal with it.  Folk just thoiught it reverted to the LPA due to the TPO.  

 

It is very common up here, but Scotland has had a different system of land ownership form England since ever (Roman Law origins mixed with feudal tenure). The developer records a deed called a  Deed of Conditions, which applies to all houses sold in the developent. It sets out the common rights and obligations in respect of common parts, which cna be everything from roof trusses to open spaces. It is binding on everyone and is referred to in the recorded deed of every house. Strictly speakign it is only enforceable by the developer against each house owner but by the principle of jus quaesitum tertio it is enforceable by each owner against every other owner. It is recognised in the Land Certificate and legislation as a 'community burden', giving it full enforceability.

The good but is that individuals can't muck about. The bad thing is that you can never get agreement on anything. It is in effect a really good way of ensuring that trees on common areas are protected by the full power of self-righteous curtain-twitching.

I keep forgetting that England has relatively primitive land ownership systems.

[Chris at eden]

1 hour ago, daltontrees said:

Chris see my reply to AHPP, I don't know that there's such a thing as a 'caution'. It might strictly speakino be called a 'reprimand on interview under caution'. Happy to be proved wrong.

PACE interviews are a minefield to be fair.  I did my training with a company called Daniel training services a few years ago.  The trainer was a former police detective who was top bloke over the whole of Yorkshire and this was kind of his retirement plan. He had some mad stories from over the years.  It was a 3 day course and well worth doing if you are doing investigation and enforcement.  Things like, you cannot ask questions other than names on site.  You can, but everything has to be recorded word for word and you have to read out the caution first.  You cant rock up and say, did you instruct the works unless you start with 'you do not have to say anything, blah blah blah.  If you do, a half decent barrister will get it thrown out.  Its just name and ownership. 

 

Then, any notes have to be contemporaneous.  So in a note book onsite.  You cant go back and type them up in the office.  You can for your witness statement but not for use in court.  If you give evidence in court and ask to refer to your notes they should be from the notebook.  The judge may ask when they were mad and you have to say contemporaneously while on site. 

 

The thing you read out at the start is the caution in terms of telling people what you are doing and what their rights are, I have heard it referred to a s a citation as well though. 

 

You can just rock up unannounced either unless there is a crime in progress.  If someone calls and says the trees was felled a couple of weeks ago, you are meant to write to them and arrange a suitable time to visit apparentley.  I think from memory it come from RIPA.  Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000.

 

In terms of the written caution you can issue either a caution (a straight forward warning), or a conditional caution (requires them to do something).  For example, on the condition that you replace the tree, you probably wouldn't do hat as there are powers under section 207 for that in the TCPA 1990. See below for info.   The only difference i can see is that TPO cautions may not show up on a DBS.  I suppose it depends if they check with the LA when doing the checks.   

 

/assets/static/govuk-opengraph-image-dade2dad5775023b0568381c4c074b86318194edb36d3d68df721eea7deeac4b.png

Police cautions, warnings and penalty notices - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

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The police or Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) can give you a caution (warning) or a penalty notice if you commit a minor crime

                  

[Chris at eden]

6 minutes ago, Chris at eden said:

PACE interviews are a minefield to be fair.  I did my training with a company called Daniel training services a few years ago.  The trainer was a former police detective who was top bloke over the whole of Yorkshire and this was kind of his retirement plan. He had some mad stories from over the years.  It was a 3 day course and well worth doing if you are doing investigation and enforcement.  Things like, you cannot ask questions other than names on site.  You can, but everything has to be recorded word for word and you have to read out the caution first.  You cant rock up and say, did you instruct the works unless you start with 'you do not have to say anything, blah blah blah.  If you do, a half decent barrister will get it thrown out.  Its just name and ownership. 

 

Then, any notes have to be contemporaneous.  So in a note book onsite.  You cant go back and type them up in the office.  You can for your witness statement but not for use in court.  If you give evidence in court and ask to refer to your notes they should be from the notebook.  The judge may ask when they were mad and you have to say contemporaneously while on site. 

 

The thing you read out at the start is the caution in terms of telling people what you are doing and what their rights are, I have heard it referred to a s a citation as well though. 

 

You can just rock up unannounced either unless there is a crime in progress.  If someone calls and says the trees was felled a couple of weeks ago, you are meant to write to them and arrange a suitable time to visit apparentley.  I think from memory it come from RIPA.  Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000.

 

In terms of the written caution you can issue either a caution (a straight forward warning), or a conditional caution (requires them to do something).  For example, on the condition that you replace the tree, you probably wouldn't do hat as there are powers under section 207 for that in the TCPA 1990. See below for info.   The only difference i can see is that TPO cautions may not show up on a DBS.  I suppose it depends if they check with the LA when doing the checks.   

 

/assets/static/govuk-opengraph-image-dade2dad5775023b0568381c4c074b86318194edb36d3d68df721eea7deeac4b.png

Police cautions, warnings and penalty notices - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

---

The police or Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) can give you a caution (warning) or a penalty notice if you commit a minor crime

                  

 

Couple of typos in there, RIPA says you cant just rock up, not you can. 

 

[hedge mong]

2 hours ago, daltontrees said:

Excuse me, who are you telling to STFU, and do you really think that it adds weight to your argument?

Nope no weight but still STFU

[AHPP]

There's THE caution and then there's A caution.

 

THE caution is the particular wording ("You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned...") that a copper must use when arresting, interviewing etc. It's the 'reading you your rights' thing. Known as Miranda in the US. The requirement to use it is in PACE and the wording (changes slightly every now and again) is in the PACE Codes of Practice, probably G (arrest).

 

A caution is a relatively light punishment for a criminal offence. Offender coughs to whatever he did to avoid a trial. It's a black mark that shows on things like DBS checks and firearms certs checks and it has implications for things like giving evidence in court, probably something like the other side's lawyer is entitled to bring it to the attention of the bench/jury to make them seem less trustworthy as a witness. I've been rather lazy and not looked it up but I suspect they're made into a particular legal thing in somewhere like one of the Criminal Justice Acts, Police Acts, Rehab of Offenders Acts, LASPO, PACE or some similar catch-all act.

Edited August 20, 2023 by AHPP

[AHPP]

@Chris at eden Have you got any course material/notes from your interview training?

[donnk]

never accept a police caution, you will have a criminal record thereafter.

 

A caution is offered usually as the case isnt strong enough to take to the courts.