Very roughly how many cu mtrs of firewood do you sell per year.

[Westwood]

On 17/01/2021 at 10:12, arboriculturist said:

" As a stand alone business as we are you can either be very small with minimum investment or invest heavily to grow the business and achieve economies of scale which is the path we have chosen.  We have up to 3 people full time and occasional helpers. "

 

Given that you buy  30% of timber already processed, employing up to 3 people full time and occasional helpers is a lot of labour to produce 1400m3 annually and retail 600m3 of bought in.

 

Sounds like you are getting a lot of low grade small timber that takes an age to process.

2000 bags plus accessories (about 3000 bags kindling 2000 firelighters etc) requires delivering and at this time of year it requires 12 hour days and occupies 1.5 drivers and 0.5 people scheduling and order processing.  For weeks we have been delivering 20 bags a day from one truck (next capital expenditure is a second truck) but even if we had a second truck we would still need 1.5 people plus a half time scheduler.

 

We have to bag up from the drying crates ( nearly 1000 cube in crates , 500+ 2m cube crates at any one time) - we need to get better at this but just moving crates around and tipping for a couple of hours at 4 bags per fill takes people - in between loading the truck and bagging up kiln dried and netting up nets and filling barrow bags.  This is not all about processing and how big your machine is.  just for the record we can do 8-10 cube an hour of 25cm logs with no stoppages on high spec sorted timber.  That does not equate to 80 cube a day because timber is not perfect blockages have to be sorted a 6 meter log deck needs to be loaded, sawdust, waste and filled crates have to be removed and replaced..  In the summer we drop back to 2.5 people - but two people have to manage the machine the other is doing summer deliveries.

 

You are right we have too much low grade and out of spec timber which is what we sub-contract out.  Our small machine (20ton Trackmet) is fine on ringed up arb waste but very slow on small diameter timber.  There is no doubt that small spec timber can be dealt with more effectively by 2 person teams not distracted by customers and delivery schedules.

 

i have no doubt we are not perfect - we are very clear about our target market.  Our customers want a choice of season type and wood species and are prepared to pay a premium if necessary.  We deliver from a 4 meter crane on the back corner of the truck and drop bags wherever they want them within reason including into garages and over hedges - we don't loose tip..  We use low cost delivery builders bags and leave them with the customer.

 

We are probably running at a bit higher than 2000 cube a year at the moment, last year was 1300 cube.  We do see increased business next year forcing some capital expenditure but there are some big decisions around processing.  There are a large number of people in the industry who nationally distribute but don't cut a log and indeed probably don't run a truck.

 

We have 500 tons of cord timber on site at any one time of various specs and ages - the space for that means we have to transport it around the site.  I think if you have to load and unload the forwarder onto the log deck it does not matter if you have to transport it a few hundred yards.

 

We almost certainly cannot get much bigger without kilns or without increasing bought in volumes - 1400-2000 cube air drying is a nightmare whereas buying in or kiln drying can be more "just in time".

 

How have others found it?

 

 

 

 

[arboriculturist]

54 minutes ago, Westwood said:

2000 bags plus accessories (about 3000 bags kindling 2000 firelighters etc) requires delivering and at this time of year it requires 12 hour days and occupies 1.5 drivers and 0.5 people scheduling and order processing.  For weeks we have been delivering 20 bags a day from one truck (next capital expenditure is a second truck) but even if we had a second truck we would still need 1.5 people plus a half time scheduler.

 

We have to bag up from the drying crates ( nearly 1000 cube in crates , 500+ 2m cube crates at any one time) - we need to get better at this but just moving crates around and tipping for a couple of hours at 4 bags per fill takes people - in between loading the truck and bagging up kiln dried and netting up nets and filling barrow bags.  This is not all about processing and how big your machine is.  just for the record we can do 8-10 cube an hour of 25cm logs with no stoppages on high spec sorted timber.  That does not equate to 80 cube a day because timber is not perfect blockages have to be sorted a 6 meter log deck needs to be loaded, sawdust, waste and filled crates have to be removed and replaced..  In the summer we drop back to 2.5 people - but two people have to manage the machine the other is doing summer deliveries.

 

You are right we have too much low grade and out of spec timber which is what we sub-contract out.  Our small machine (20ton Trackmet) is fine on ringed up arb waste but very slow on small diameter timber.  There is no doubt that small spec timber can be dealt with more effectively by 2 person teams not distracted by customers and delivery schedules.

 

i have no doubt we are not perfect - we are very clear about our target market.  Our customers want a choice of season type and wood species and are prepared to pay a premium if necessary.  We deliver from a 4 meter crane on the back corner of the truck and drop bags wherever they want them within reason including into garages and over hedges - we don't loose tip..  We use low cost delivery builders bags and leave them with the customer.

 

We are probably running at a bit higher than 2000 cube a year at the moment, last year was 1300 cube.  We do see increased business next year forcing some capital expenditure but there are some big decisions around processing.  There are a large number of people in the industry who nationally distribute but don't cut a log and indeed probably don't run a truck.

 

We have 500 tons of cord timber on site at any one time of various specs and ages - the space for that means we have to transport it around the site.  I think if you have to load and unload the forwarder onto the log deck it does not matter if you have to transport it a few hundred yards.

 

We almost certainly cannot get much bigger without kilns or without increasing bought in volumes - 1400-2000 cube air drying is a nightmare whereas buying in or kiln drying can be more "just in time".

 

How have others found it?

 

 

 

 

" 1400-2000 cube air drying is a nightmare whereas buying in or kiln drying can be more "just in time".

 

How have others found it? "

 

At the end of the day, I think you just have to ask yourself - Is this business giving me the lifestyle I would like.

 

It sounds to me as though there is significant pressure and stress running that setup and unless you have run a firewood business on the scale you have it's difficult for others to appreciate what you are going through on a daily basis.

Then you have the new legislation coming online, which will be in May for you.

 

There are a few things I would never do for what its worth, as these are areas that significant labour costs are incurred at every step:

 

Make and bag kindling

Deliver firewood in bulk bags

Bag any size of bag of whatever product

Deliver anything less than 1m3 of firewood to a customer

 

I expect you already take a lot of trouble in grading timber as it is delivered, so when it hits the processors the last thing you ever, ever have to do is think about a chainsaw.

 

Our timber only ever gets moved by machine 3 times from roundwood delivery to ending up on the delivery vehicle.

 

I don't think any of us will ever crack the problem of getting the spec. roundwood delivered that we all require.

 

It sounds like you have worked long and hard on your business and perhaps you enjoy the lifestyle it provides.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by arboriculturist