Arb Assoc now saying we can go back to work

[drinksloe]

11 minutes ago, leswold said:

I've read this thread which has been interesting to see all your opinions & circumstances. We're a family only business doing mostly domestic, local work, with a good reputation. We called a halt to work on 27th Mar, when this first broke after getting some minor abuse from a passing jogger (little man syndrome) & being told via media stay indoors. Since then I've been reading the latest Govt website advice which seems to tell us to continue to work if the conditions (distancing, non contact with known carriers etc) can be complied with. However, it seems that theres conflict between the Govt advice & the police who I called yesterday to ask their view. I was told in no uncertain terms that if I was stopped while travelling re work, whether to quote or carry out normal (non essential) work, we be issued a fine. For now we can remain off work but the money is dwindling fast. 

 

Shame u don't live in Scotland and have a 2nd holiday house needing trees done, I'd be fine doing them.

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

19 hours ago, Andymacp said:

I think the majority are well past the stage of wondering if the should or shouldn’t work and have heard valid reasons from both points of view.
What I’m asking is for a bit more info from our trade body in how to carryout those task safely. There will be plenty of people out there working incorrectly due to not knowing how.
Unless you can can me exactly how to do a rigging job without cross contamination.

Hi there, just re-reading this post which is consistent with your early one and again citing "cross-contamination" risks whilst rigging.

 

Forgive me, but to understand you refer to the chances of the climber being infected, touching the rigging equipment and / or branch to be rigged, and then contaminating / infecting the ground workers yeah?

 

If so, my thoughts are as follows (and assumes the works are deemed essential, e.g. safety works / clearance of infrastructure, AND that rigging operations are required) :

1. Why is the infected climber working? (acknowledged he may not be aware, but increasingly seems unlikely, or may be infected and asymptomatic)

2. Is everyone wearing gloves to protect against cross contamination / infection (unusual for climbers but these are unusual times)

3. Is everyone washing / cleansing hands before eating or travelling (hand wipes / sanitizer 60% alcohol) and then thoroughly washing with detergent at the end of the working day (20 secs min. etc.)

4. Are all tools and equipment being cleaned / disinfected (where possible) or washed down with warm water and detergent at the end of use / the day.

 

PLEASE read my 1,2,3&4 above as "Starters for Ten" and add to, or subtract, in a constructive way such that collectively we can produce some (informal) guidance for a particular activity. Thank you.

 

Regards all,

Paul 

 

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

46 minutes ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

(and assumes the works are deemed essential, e.g. safety works / clearance of infrastructure,

I’d just suggest Paul, the premise above seems to proffer some form of qualification of the nature of works which might be undertaken ie safety / inf related = justified, routine = not justified. 
 

This appears to be directly at odds with published guidance:

 

 Firms that can safely stay open and support livelihoods should not be forced to close by misunderstandings about government guidance.

 

 

Coronavirus: A joint statement between HSE, the TUC and the CBI - HSE Media Centre

PRESS.HSE.GOV.UK

---

This is an extremely worrying time for firms and workers. We know many workers, union reps and employers have...

 

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

17 minutes ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

I’d just suggest Paul, the premise above seems to proffer some form of qualification of the nature of works which might be undertaken ie safety / inf related = justified, routine = not justified. 
 

This appears to be directly at odds with published guidance:

 

 Firms that can safely stay open and support livelihoods should not be forced to close by misunderstandings about government guidance.

 

 

Coronavirus: A joint statement between HSE, the TUC and the CBI - HSE Media Centre

PRESS.HSE.GOV.UK

---

This is an extremely worrying time for firms and workers. We know many workers, union reps and employers have...

 

Hi Kevin (and Mick), "fair comment" but just being consistent with the AA underlying message (examples) and people will make their own decisions, based on various factors including economic, as to whether the work in hand is essential or not. 

 

Respectfully, can we please focus on the main question about measures to avoid cross-contamination.

 

Thanks n regards,

Paul

[drinksloe]

Just in response to AA techie, and I'm obviously not an expert.

 

But I watched a while clip in bloody subtitles ( and nochance of nudity, that must be a 1st ) 

Anyway it was 1 of leading experts from S Korea, they were on it very early with massive testing across the population, they found that around 30% off the population had absolutely no symptoms but tested positive for it, and they were more ur younger fitter types.

So chances are with the physical side of cutting)climbing the is a reasonably high chance many might not exhbt any symptoms at all.

But equally there work mates also likely won't be badly affected either ( assuming no health risks)

So it might not be that easy to actually know if u have it throu no fault of ur own spreading it.

 

The other thing he said the virus must enter ur system throu mouth, nose or eyes ( or possibly a cut) can't go throu skin. Hence why washing hands and not touching face so important. But not easy if ur working/sweating with saw dust flying about.

 

Every day life is a risk esp using saws or even more so climbing a tree with a saw, probably more folk hurt themselves putting on trousers/socks or falling down stairs.

Just got to weigh up the risks involved, risks will be higher if u live with ur olds or an at risk person.

 

Way I see it were ALL going to catch it at some point, trick is to catch it when hospitals are quietist so space if u need it.

 

Can't se my forestry work starting up anytime soon,, I could go fencing but to be honest wee bit more concerned with risks involved with that as ur all in out tractors, using chapper and bigger hand tools.

Mibbee a bit too much risk of cross continuation of hard metal surfaces ( virus lasts longer) and I am in an a higher risk category having had severe asthma.

Looking like I might chase up some planting work instead, on own no cross contam and still making a living.

Edited April 7, 2020 by drinksloe

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

6 minutes ago, drinksloe said:

Way I see it were ALL going to catch it at some point, trick is to catch it when hospitals are quietist so space if u need it.

Thank you, and that's really interesting stuff n makes lots of sense.

 

The above is a very wise observation...just hoping in all our cases it isn't any time soon  

 

ATB tc, n I hope some planting work turns up for you soon..

Paul

[drinksloe]

Cheers Paul.

To be fair in my area the hospitals are still quite quiet so far. Long may that continue, althou local dr's surgery is full of it.

 

But think we will be weeks or even months behind London and elsewhere, so might all to come, if it does. I guess many rural areas will be.

But most locals really are staying in, mibbee helps being rural

 

Like I say stay safe everyone but at same time u cant wrap ur self in cotton wool and live inside ur house in fear for very long.

Just an educated risk like many things are esp with tree work

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

36 minutes ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

 

Respectfully, can we please focus on the main question about measures to avoid cross-contamination

Similarly, respectfully, I’d suggest the main question, as per thread title, is the interpretation by many of the stance and guidance being presented by AA on the individuals’ decision making as regards work / not to work. 
 

Whilst AA advice appears to have swung, first one way, then the other, it still appears to retain an element of qualification (essential / non essential) which, can only be assumed to be, some form of organisational interpretation of very clear published government guidance and which, doubtless, has contributed to a widespread industry close down which is counter to government guidance. 
 

Agreed, how to work more safely is a useful approach. 
 

A clear and unequivocal acknowledgement of the “go to work if you absolutely can not work from home” would have been a better starting point perhaps. 

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

1 hour ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

A clear and unequivocal acknowledgement of the “go to work if you absolutely can not work from home” would have been a better starting point perhaps. 

Thank you Kevin, noted.

 

Regards,
Paul

[Andymacp]

Hi there, just re-reading this post which is consistent with your early one and again citing "cross-contamination" risks whilst rigging.
 
Forgive me, but to understand you refer to the chances of the climber being infected, touching the rigging equipment and / or branch to be rigged, and then contaminating / infecting the ground workers yeah?
 
If so, my thoughts are as follows (and assumes the works are deemed essential, e.g. safety works / clearance of infrastructure, AND that rigging operations are required) :
1. Why is the infected climber working? (acknowledged he may not be aware, but increasingly seems unlikely, or may be infected and asymptomatic)
2. Is everyone wearing gloves to protect against cross contamination / infection (unusual for climbers but these are unusual times)
3. Is everyone washing / cleansing hands before eating or travelling (hand wipes / sanitizer 60% alcohol) and then thoroughly washing with detergent at the end of the working day (20 secs min. etc.)
4. Are all tools and equipment being cleaned / disinfected (where possible) or washed down with warm water and detergent at the end of use / the day.
 
PLEASE read my 1,2,3&4 above as "Starters for Ten" and add to, or subtract, in a constructive way such that collectively we can produce some (informal) guidance for a particular activity. Thank you.
 
Regards all,
Paul 
 
Hi paul,


1. Like you say a climber can have the virus for 5 days without showing any symptoms. Also plenty desperate SE guys who will be tempted to work with mild symptoms.
2. For a start, what type of gloves should people be wearing ?
Latex, normal material ones ??
Gloves really are a false sense of security. As soon as the person wearing gloves touches their clothes face or any other thing that hasn’t been cleaned properly then the glove is spreading the infection to every other surface including a branch that will be handled by ground staff. Thus contaminating their gloves.
If you are wearing that one pair of gloves all day then the next day etc it is worse than wearing no gloves and regularly washing/sanitising.
3. If everyone only touches their own equipment,vehicle, chipper,log,branch,come,sign whilst also sanitising and probably deep cleaning at the end of the day.
4. Yes has to be done.

My scenario of rigging was just to highlight cross contamination because the groundsmans wife has the virus no symptoms she touches his clothes as he leaves he pops the gloves on touches the rigging rope, karibeiner and passes it up to the climber who with his gloves on now contaminated everything he touches and takes it home to his wife who works in the hospital.
Some might say this is unlikely a lot of people I see are quoting the go to work if you can’t work from home and not really thinking through the whole mechanics of the job. Just Staying 2m away and going in different vehicles isn’t enough and isn’t following PHE guidelines.

I do think some work can continue, for example 2 men travel separately to do a hedge job.
Utility work/rail where guys are working opposite ends of spans.
I just can’t see how to do a dismantle and not one person has been able to go through the mechanics of how to do it safely and following the guidelines. Which is the check for working.

On another note at least the 2 rope working problem is now solved given everyone listens and acts out exactly what the gov say !!