Rupe

Yes, I see your point, but while he is working for the other five firms his insurance policy should have no place on those jobs. i.e. it might as well no texist as far as those employers are concerned.

Yes its free country, but if you charge 140 for every set of jobs that takes one day then you are an employee not a sub contractor. A self employed employee, but still not a subcontractor. You DO need to complete all works on your own to a pre arranged "contract" in order to be a sub contractor. That is what a sub contractor is.

Exactly, it that ambiguity that is the problem. I spoke to an insuracne company about my self employed groundie tha talso climbs for me. You may have seen him doing quite well in the comp last weekend. (Good to meet you by the way, my long lost twin brother!!) Anyway they said my EL covers him and he does not need any insurance. Fine. They went on to say that if a person wants to call themselves a BFSC then they will happilly take the money off them for a policy that they don't need. So the ambiguity allows the insurance companies to take your money AND not pay out! Its criminal. Unfortuantly we all want to do the right thing and we think that we must take responsibility for out actions. This is not necessarilly the case. I'm not advocatign NO insurance, but ONE policy per job site please!!!!!!

No NO NO No NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are on the wrong track completly. Big 'ammer and I are not quite on the same page either. Never set up as a Bona fide subcontractor unless that is what you are, i.e you employ a groundsman and you quote for jobs for ther companies and own a truck chipper and everything else required. Take responsibilities away from your boss and help him in every way you can NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If your a freelancer you don't have a boss. Don't take any responsibilities away from the bloke whos trying to make a buck out of you without payign holiday pay/ sick pay etc!!!!!!!!! Have you not read any of this thread! As a freelancer look after yourself, don't have accidents or your carrer will be short!

Franks bit....... To cut a long story short, he called on his PL provider (Trust) and told them what had happened. He used the term that he only uses Bonafide subcontractors and they informed him that he didn't have EL cover... and that he needed to speak to my insurer. This is the problem. He should not have used the term BFSC, as this was incorrect, but the insurance company used this to get out of paying. You were an employee that day, and you should have been covered, no matter what decisions you made.

Originally Posted by Big 'Ammer If he had sent you to do the work without him supervising, you would be a bona-fide sub contractor. No this is wrong but it is where some confusion arises. You don't become a bona fie sub contractor just cos you get sent off to do a job without the boss there! If you get sent with his groundies for example then its is still his job! If he has seen the job (when he quoted) and you ahve not, you are beign sent under instruction, you are NOT a BFSC. His insurance still covers it. BFSC will have visited the jon before hand, given a written quote to the main contractor and then carry out the work usign thier own employees and kit in their own time.

Yes you should have it, but that does not mean you will have it. Its up to the main contractor to check that you have, and have PL themselves just in case.

Agreed, but if you earn 20K a year freelancing and 20K a year doing your own jobs, then base you insurance on 20K a year turnover not 40! .

Yes, just estimate it for your first year. Don't worry about accuracy. They have bands like 30-50K 50-80K 80-100K or whatever so just guess and whatever band you end up in will be the mark they use for now. It will be adjusted in the second year, so if you underestimate you will get charged a bit more next year when they get the actual figures and vice versa. The main thing is not to put down too much for climbing. If you estimate trunover of 75K per year doing tree work, don't go and put 75K a year down as climbing!! If one of you is on the ground that 50% climbing. The climber helps clear up at the end of the day so that 40% climbing. Plus any work you do at ground level, usually lots more than you think bring the actual time climbing down to maybe 25% or turnover?? Try and keep a record throughout the year of what each job consisted of, climbing, ground work etc so that next year you can give them more accurate figures. Don't give it too much concern.

Good for you. Another good exampel of why it is unecessary...... Frank, when you work for other companies do you sign thier RA? Or at least read it and agree with it etc. If yes, then you don't need another insurance policy. If you refuse to have anything to do with their RA and write your own everyday and make them all sign yours then you would need to be insured!!

Yep, thats all about right. EL covers freelancers and PL covers sub contractors if that included in your policy but they shoould still have their own. You bring up a good point, that if (and this includes you then) the main contractor does not have EL and only uses hired in help then that help should have their own PL. As long as those working for you know that then no worries. I hope you pay extra to cover their additional outlay.

I think I'm with you now. The answer to the original question in still no.

In this instacne it might be best to avoid the word subbies as its confusing but I think I know what you mean. Basically all the "subbies" insurance does is make insurance companies more profit while we all do the hard work. Thats not on, although my premiums have come down each year!

Yes, the fact that the branch landed in the carriagway where traffic was still continueing means it would be your fault. Even though she jumped the lights. If you want to land stuff in the open carriageway you need to physically stop the traffic both ways (not just two red lights). Hopefully she knows she was in the wrong though, but either way it can't ever be the climbers fault. team effort and all that. If he disobeyed your instrcutions then its yoru fault for hiring soemone that disobeyes instructions. There is no passing the buck.

I just typed a big reply and hit soemthing wrong and it went. Basically Yes, that is how I see it, although others disagree no one can really come up with a reason to have it.

Yes, no, yes, no....... EL does not cover subcontractors cos you are not employing them, you are hiring their company. PL should include the USE of bona fide sub contractors, BUT you would still want to make sure they have their own as they are out of your control (because they are on a seperate contract)

Good for you! Take it like the man you are! Excpept it was clearly the womans fault. It syour job to sort it out not the climbers, but does sound like you should just laugh at her, and do some pointing as well!!

I don't understand what you are saying. In your older company was it due to you being over the vat threshold for 2 years without registerign that made you have to pay the extra vat back? Never heard of anyone paying vat on income (I presume you mean turnover) prior to them registering, unless as I said above they were over the threshold and had not declared it.

I do think there is a problem though, whne an experienced climber works for an in experienced firm. Wherby the boss or person in charge of the firm doesn't have the skills to ssupervise the climber during difficult work situations. i.e. the climber is now runnign the show!! In this case avoid working for companies like that, your only making them look good if it all goes well. And if you can't avoid it, definatly don't take out insurance to help them out as well!!

No, freelancing is not sub contracting. Its 2 seperate things. I think on here the word "subbie" gets used for a freelancer but it really is not the same thing at all. Frank, if my Unlce lived near you I might sub contract any work at his house to you and you would need insurance. If I drove up there and you joined me for the day as a freelance helper (climber or otherwise) then you would not need insurance. If you dropped something on his house and broke it then its my mistake for gettign you in and not supervising, my insurance must cover that mistake that I made!!

Yes that pretty much it. Problem is that freelancers call themselves subbies or sub contractors and insurance companies will take their money if they are saying they are a sub contractor.

I would avoid working for companies that don't stand by their decision to hire in a freelancer. If the freelancer screws up then its the companies mistake. Its not your work, so it can't be your fault. No tree company can pass the buck to a person they have chosen to do their work. (not including sub contractors)

I claimed back on all equipment purchased on the last two years but didn't pay on everything I had earned in that time? I could only claim vat from expenses for a shorter period, 3 months I think. Where are you getting your info? Have things changed? Its only 3-4 years since I registered.

Q1. Insuring other peoples work is a waste of money.