Amelanchier

*Cough* Kretzschmaria Indeed, you would walk right by. We have to seperate reasonable management of trees from perfect management of trees. If there are no symptoms of defects, it's a waste of time to be checking for them - next tree please I haven't got all day. The TI camera won't tell you that you have soft rot decay with no external symptoms, it might tell you that the outer wood of the tree has a different heat signature to a similar tree (on the side of the tree you take the picture!), it would be up to you to determine the cause of that result. Much in the same way that a PICUS image might give similar results for a crack or a cavity, we have to interpret the data. Incidentally, you probably wouldn't drill to test for soft rot as Schwarze has shown that the PICUS can detect extensive establish decay in its normal mode and the early stages of incipient decay using a comparison of the indivdual velocities (if the sound is quicker one way between two point than the reverse).

The decurrent habit of mature Scots lend itself a bit more naturally IMO, you can usually find one of those nice points where a parallell secondary branch rolls over the primary. Reductions should be avoided on anything excurrent, right? Especially those with opposite budding - even the best reduction looks poor.

It's a false comparison really though, as the PICUS examines relative sound values to ascertain damage / decay whereas the Thermogadget is supposed to show the degree of function / dysfunctional tissue. The two aren't necessarily related. I'm not sold on it's application to trees. Aside from all the other issues mentioned above, I wonder how an appropriate testing methodology for the equipment / method can be established when the people using the thermo images are well versed in VTA?!? Surely (don't call me Surely) to remove the unconcious assessment of defects / deformations / symptoms / etc within the interpretation of the images, non-arbs should be interpreting the images?! Otherwise its a bit like seeing jesus / elvis in potatoes / toast. (Just trying to get lots of slash/marks in really, sorry )

I think this earlier part of the post got missed first time round due to some softcore thermoporn Thoughts?

Indeed it is... Inosculation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yeah I thought that when I saw it too. Perhaps there's a local need for photosynthate?

Little bit more inosculation on a mature Ash for y'all.

Thought I'd leave it late just to add to your burdens mate.

I agree. It does seem disappointing that the delivery plan for the ETWF lists a plethora of Arb related targets/actions and the AA is seemingly signed up for only one of them! CC 1.5.3 Develop urban tree canopy cover as an indicator of progress in climate change adaptation. List of Actions And what's going on? I've been a paid up member for some years now and don't remember reading anything about AA involvement in the delivery plan and I certainly haven't heard anything about how they propose to contribute? So expanding on the affliction of the 'Green' industry Frimsley, what do you think about the CABE recommendations in Grey to Green? green infrastructure skills should be recognised as critical in the national climate change adaptation strategy a national green infrastructure taskforce should be established to champion and set an agenda for environmental policy and technical delivery. a single national database of green assets should be developed. Seems lovely but I'm not au fait with CABE's level of clout... CABE grey-to-green.pdf

Nah Andy, that makes you C) Other.

Yep I was aware of John's case for a tree commission. Whilst its laudible - I don't see it ever happening... The reason why I mentioned the FC was that they, along with DEFRA, are producing the high level strategy docs Forestry Commission - A Delivery Plan for the ETWF Strategy www.defra.gov.uk/rural/documents/forestry/20070620-forestry.pd These aren't trad forestry strategies - they don't focus on production, they focus on sustainable adaptation, landscape and amenity. Our stuff right? Target after target in these documents overlap our work. Diagram 3 of the FC ETWF shows all the organisations and bodies involved in delivering the strategy...The AA are listed - anyone have any idea how we're (those of us on the dark side!) going to contribute? Anyone ever hear a single word from the AA about it!?! Just seems to me that we're going to be left behind if we're not careful which will make us even less relevent. I don't think we should bin our trade/professional organisations - we just need to get ourselves involved.

Ah sorry. No I can't save one either - thats odd... Anyway here's one I saved earlier. http___www.njug.org.pdf

That's 'cos it's now called NJUG Vol. 4 which is available below National Joint Utilities Group - Publications & Positions / Publications Not the most inspiring document but useful as a handout huh?

There will be no abuse or laughter mate, you stood your ground well. It does make a good photo and don't forget - 9 threads out of 10 die within 24hrs after inevitably derailing. Its not personal its our nature. If I had to go back and recant all the daft things I've said I wouldn't have time to say new daft things. That's what we're all here for - on here you won't be prosecuted for negligence (well not yet anyway). I remember the thread where I moaned at MonkeyD for exactly the same VTA thing... I wasn't trying to make you out to be a tool, the 'talkers just test the new guys and gals. Baptism of fire if you like. Some stick it, some have a tantrum and leave firing off solictors threats. The tree will probably fail tonight and you can get some better shots!

I think things have progressed fairly over the past 20 years. The basic research has been done - Shigo / Mattheck and the like, and its been implemented by the majority of 'proper' tree workers and enshrined in British Standards. I suspect the next 20 years will be a bit of a let down compared with that. We should aim for integration not specialisation. That's why I mentioned the FC - hell as far as the lawmakers are concerned, urban trees are their remit anyway. We're nothing but a minority pressure group. Perhaps we should aim for reformation rather than revolution and push our agenda from inside the belly of the beast?

I think the sustainability agenda is something we should be a big part of but like you say, the ecologists have it in the bag. Perhaps the impact of european direction bolsters their status? perhaps we're a one trick pony? Maybe we're seen also as a reactive industry - the people who you call when stuff goes wrong or gets dangerous? Not the people you call when you want proactive design or management? Farm stewardships involve tree management and planting but ignore arbs. Most planning design involving trees is done by landscapers (most of it poorly IMO). Perhaps these and other people do the job sufficiently well?

Scarpas on offer at cotswolds at the mo...

Perhaps the research is particularly difficult to do? You'd need a range of species, ages and vitality and a good decade or so to examine the long term effects... Maybe you can't find the research because it ain't there? I don't think its that odd that the evidence you indicates that trees are more resilient than the guidance makes out - they probably are! Same goes with ecosystems, 20 years after the Exxon Valdez, life on Prince William Sound is pretty much back to normal. The area around the Chernobyl reactor that went pop in 1986 is now a national wildlife sanctuary.

Is an elder not a thing of beauty to you Dean? With its majestic arching form that sticks in the the chipper and its attractive multistem habit that conceals stones and scrap from the chainsaw users eye. Do the berries and flowers, relied on by birds and insects, not provoke an emotional connection as you try in vain to clear them from the lawn...

I guess that was pretty annoying for the developer now I come to think about it... Ah well live and learn.

Sorry no photos. Bit of planning gamesmanship - secured some space for a replant. Nice big RPA meant some breathing room for a new larch.

I TPO'd an elder once...

This is one of those industry taboos. There is no logical reason to suspect that roots are any worse at dealing with damage than the above ground parts of trees. Problem is we cant see roots so people undertaking excavations are pruning blind. Hence the precautionary principle and the panic regarding developers. Trouble is trees / habitats / ecosystems are more resiliant that we care to admit for fear that more damge will be done. I tell people excavation root damage is like a car crash - you can survive it, but its better to avoid it.

Or prehaps ecology is not bourne of a practical hands on / silky cuts / hawthorn scratches industry...

Weird is'nt it? He'll have a degree just like many Arbos but he's the man and they ain't. Is it because ecology is a broader discipline? Perhaps developers compartmentalise the roles of the job? drawing guy - makes pretty plans engineering guy - checks it won't fall down money guy - is it worth it? planning guy - get consent construction guys - build it / drink tea namby pamby green and fluffy stuff guy - deals with stuff thats in the way. Ideally you don't want a specialist if you can get away with it.