Advice Please.

[Gary Prentice]

I need some answers to a number of questions and tbh don't have the time to spend all night trawling through Mynor's and searching Acts and Statutes. I think I've got more questions than I'm actually going to ask now, but for starters......

 

 

 

 

A) For the purpose of submissions to the LPA, does a submission have to go to the actual planning department or would an email submission to the Tree Officer ( who is employed in a separate department) count as the submission date?

 

B) I've read elsewhere that for the purpose of a S.211 notice, there is no legal requirement to provide a site plan. Where does it state this?

 

C) Is there a legal requirement for the LPA to issue a validation letter after a S211 notice is submitted or any letter giving the expiration date of the six week period?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

gary

[Chris at eden]

I need some answers to a number of questions and tbh don't have the time to spend all night trawling through Mynor's and searching Acts and Statutes. I think I've got more questions than I'm actually going to ask now, but for starters......

 

 

 

 

A) For the purpose of submissions to the LPA, does a submission have to go to the actual planning department or would an email submission to the Tree Officer ( who is employed in a separate department) count as the submission date?

 

B) I've read elsewhere that for the purpose of a S.211 notice, there is no legal requirement to provide a site plan. Where does it state this?

 

C) Is there a legal requirement for the LPA to issue a validation letter after a S211 notice is submitted or any letter giving the expiration date of the six week period?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

gary

 

 

Hi Gary

 

A) I think it would depend who registers and validates it. If its the LPA then them although the TO may be happy to forward it.

 

B) There is no requirement to submit a 211 on the one app and that is what requires the plan. I believe it came in in 2008.

 

C) It used to be best practice to acknowledge receipt but I think the 2012 made it a requirement, certainly for TPOs anyway.

 

Cheers

[Gary Prentice]

Hi Gary

 

A) I think it would depend who registers and validates it. If its the LPA then them although the TO may be happy to forward it.

 

B) There is no requirement to submit a 211 on the one app and that is what requires the plan. I believe it came in in 2008.

 

C) It used to be best practice to acknowledge receipt but I think the 2012 made it a requirement, certainly for TPOs anyway.

 

Cheers

 

A)The devil is in the detail. I think the wording 'Local Planning Authority' allows a degree of ambiguity. Is the council as a whole the LPA or the planning department itself? Is it reasonable for the 'applicant' to assume the clock starts ticking because the TO has received the submission?

 

A client submitted to the TO in the middle of April and heard nothing back at all. I got involved on wednesday and phoned the planning department to ask what was the date of submission (i.e. when did they receive it from the TO) and have been stonewalled ever since. At 4.50 this evening I got sent a TPO dated today.

 

Along with this, the planning officer has written that when he went the premises they couldn't validate, due to their being no plan. The submission was to fell 2 ash trees. There's two ash and two sycamore in the garden. It feels like being baffled with bull manure.

 

With less knowledge, I would have felled the trees on wednesday on the presumption that six weeks had elapsed. But by making sure everything was legal and by attempting to clarify the position, now we can't.

 

I don't think the council has acted particularly well in all of this and as a matter of principle want to make them change their procedures. I'm putting in at least one TPO app/211 notice a week and have to chase every decision up. I don't want to appeal (non-confirmation) every bloody app but nothing comes back on time. One app took 5 months and CA responses regularly arrive 1-2 months after we've done the work. Sorry I'm ranting:biggrin:

 

I'm making enquiries elsewhere, so if I get definitive answers I'll post them up.

[IVECOKID]

My last job involving the local TO I was told if I heard nothing after 26 days I can crack on , also this was in writing .They made a site visit on the 25th and received a letter on the 26th , I often wondered if any commitment was put in by them . I submitted the plans on the 14th April by e-mail .

 

 

Ste

Edited June 10, 2016 by IVECOKID

[Gary Prentice]

It's difficult to comment without knowing the circumstances. I have no issue with protecting the trees with a TPO, tbh I would in their position.

 

I'm acting on principle. I act professionally and play by the rules. This authority are appalling at times. One case comes to mind where they twice refused consent to fell a tree on which an order hadn't been confirmed - after eight years. And I can prove that they did it with the full knowledge that it wasn't protected.

 

This client had a window of opportunity, after the expiration of six weeks until today but due to their ignorance and the councils procedures, they didn't avail themselves. I'd just like to see some integrity somewhere.

[Chris at eden]

A)The devil is in the detail. I think the wording 'Local Planning Authority' allows a degree of ambiguity. Is the council as a whole the LPA or the planning department itself? Is it reasonable for the 'applicant' to assume the clock starts ticking because the TO has received the submission?

 

A client submitted to the TO in the middle of April and heard nothing back at all. I got involved on wednesday and phoned the planning department to ask what was the date of submission (i.e. when did they receive it from the TO) and have been stonewalled ever since. At 4.50 this evening I got sent a TPO dated today.

 

Along with this, the planning officer has written that when he went the premises they couldn't validate, due to their being no plan. The submission was to fell 2 ash trees. There's two ash and two sycamore in the garden. It feels like being baffled with bull manure.

 

With less knowledge, I would have felled the trees on wednesday on the presumption that six weeks had elapsed. But by making sure everything was legal and by attempting to clarify the position, now we can't.

 

I don't think the council has acted particularly well in all of this and as a matter of principle want to make them change their procedures. I'm putting in at least one TPO app/211 notice a week and have to chase every decision up. I don't want to appeal (non-confirmation) every bloody app but nothing comes back on time. One app took 5 months and CA responses regularly arrive 1-2 months after we've done the work. Sorry I'm ranting:biggrin:

 

I'm making enquiries elsewhere, so if I get definitive answers I'll post them up.

 

 

The thing about the LPA being the council in general is in relation to an exemption only. LPAs or parks depts generally validate apps, no one else.

 

Thinking about it I don't think they have to validate 211s as they can just ignore them and allow works.

 

You don't really need a plan but what the regs do say is that the notice needs to contain enough information to identify the tree accurately. So if you have two oaks in a front garden then a plan may be a good idea. You could just go with the northern most oak though I suppose.

 

TOs come in for a lot of stick on here and no doubt there are some pretty rubbish ones out there but there are also some good ones. I tell you something else. As you know work on both sides and there are some equally rubbish tree surgeons and consultants out there. I know one chartered arb who submits arb impact assessments that are no more than one paragraph.

[Gary Prentice]

The thing about the LPA being the council in general is in relation to an exemption only. LPAs or parks depts generally validate apps, no one else.

What I'm trying to establish is the definition though. A LPA may be a Parish, District, Metropolitan Borough Council or a National Park Authority, the governing organization that controls the areas planning regulations. I'm trying to clarify if it's sufficient that an officer within the authority receives a submission or whether it states anywhere that it has to be submitted to the department specifically tasked to deal with it.

In this instance, The TO received it on April 15th, he's an officer of the Local authority but not within the department (designated to respond with it). When does the clock start ticking? When he received it or when/if he passes it on?

 

Thinking about it I don't think they have to validate 211s as they can just ignore them and allow works.

But to say after that there was insufficient info (no plan) to allow the assessment, therefore suggests that the submission wasn't valid. Common sense says that the applicant should have been contacted if they're now saying it couldn't have been dealt with

 

You don't really need a plan but what the regs do say is that the notice needs to contain enough information to identify the tree accurately. So if you have two oaks in a front garden then a plan may be a good idea. You could just go with the northern most oak though I suppose.

I'm being told that despite there being only two ash trees in the garden (fell both), there was insufficient information to process the submission and then they failed to inform the owner of this

 

TOs come in for a lot of stick on here and no doubt there are some pretty rubbish ones out there but there are also some good ones. I tell you something else. As you know work on both sides and there are some equally rubbish tree surgeons and consultants out there.

 

Chris, in no way am I criticizing the TO and agree with his decision to TPO. I'm not sure that he would even have a legal duty to pass it to the appropriate department. For all I know he was on leave for a fortnight when the submission was emailed to him. Which was why I asked the planning department for the date that they actually received it themselves. Instead of supplying the information, then and there, I was told they would phone/email with it. Then for the next two days all my calls and emails were ignored until the order landed.

 

I'm confident that the trees weren't protected and the time was then utilized to protect them.

 

Fairs fair. A s211 notice is submitted. The LPA have six weeks to view and decide on an appropriate course of action. But when they don't, muddy the water and refuse/fail to provide the information to clarify the legal position when requested, it's a poor situation.

 

 

 

I know one chartered arb who submits arb impact assessments that are no more than one paragraph.

 

But the LPA have the authority not to accept that, if they continue to do so is the consultant going to improve? It wouldn't be an abuse of their powers to state that there is insufficient information in the AIM for them to reach a decision and then request more.

[daltontrees]

 

A) For the purpose of submissions to the LPA, does a submission have to go to the actual planning department or would an email submission to the Tree Officer ( who is employed in a separate department) count as the submission date?

 

B) I've read elsewhere that for the purpose of a S.211 notice, there is no legal requirement to provide a site plan. Where does it state this?

 

C) Is there a legal requirement for the LPA to issue a validation letter after a S211 notice is submitted or any letter giving the expiration date of the six week period?

 

 

A. I don't think there is a statutory answer to this. If the Act calls for written notification (s.211) to the LPA, it's not to the Plannign Dept. it's to the Council. Let its mail dept. redicrect it to the right dept. I always put mine in to the Council's registered address (HQ) unless the Council has published (usually on its website) where notifications are to be sent.

 

If, however, the Council takes it a little further and individual TOs state that they accept emails directly to the TO, then the Council cannot subsequently say that a notification was late or wrongly submitted.

 

The picture is a little blurry recently because of the use of emails. There is statute providing for what constitutes 'writing' and the like and whether emails count. But if an email is accepted, that's the end of it. Always ask for an acknowledgement. In my case I follow emails up with a letter.

 

B. It doesn't state this anywhere, it doesn't have to. The legislation ust requires sufficient info to identify the tree(s).

 

C. No. A safe bet is to assume a letter will take say 2 working days to get to the Council, and its response will take the same to come back. So if you allow 6 weeks and 2 working days and get no written response, you are immune from prosecution if you do the notified tree work. Even, dare i say it, if the Council subsequently TPOs the trees.

[Chris at eden]

LPAs usually start the clock at the time they validate. Bit cheeky probably but they get away with it. I would suggest that if you want to start the clock when they receive it you could just send it registered post. It would stop them saying we didn't get it until this date.

 

Where I work they usually have two date stamps. One for the post room and another for environmental services. Guess which one we use.

 

You are pretty stuffed on this one though. You could put in a complaint to the ombudsman I suppose but I doubt you would get far with it.

[Gary Prentice]

LPAs usually start the clock at the time they validate. Bit cheeky probably but they get away with it. I would suggest that if you want to start the clock when they receive it you could just send it registered post. It would stop them saying we didn't get it until this date.

 

Where I work they usually have two date stamps. One for the post room and another for environmental services. Guess which one we use.

 

You are pretty stuffed on this one though. You could put in a complaint to the ombudsman I suppose but I doubt you would get far with it.

 

The planning department send an automatic reply on emails, so coupled with the 'sent email' information I'm comfortable in proving submissions.

 

I've seen the trees today and am still in agreement with the TO in his decision to protect further, but that's beside the point. I want to pursue it to try to force the planning department to improve their practices. It's difficult for the public to understand what they can and can't do, and the general malaise and attitude in the department leaves a lot to be desired.

 

Might not win this one, but if it can be used to begin some changes I think it's worth doing.