Safety - say it like it is...

[gensetsteve]

Lots of organisations now dont grit their paths around buildings because if people fall they could be found negligent for not doing a good enough job. So now they dont bother put up a sign saying ice slip hazard to cover arse.

[Mat]

The HSE requirements are quite reasonable in terms of RAMS . Its all gone wrong with individual companies interpretation and ass covering policies that ride off the back of it. We had a situation where a company we were contracting too had a problem with one of the tractor drivers certificates because the did not "recognise" it. After a lengthy argument with the site foreman a phone call was made to the HSE who explained to him that all they required of any company in the respect of machine drivers is they have had formal training. In theory your own companies certificates of in house training should be adequate .That is the bottom line,the rest is nothing to do with HSE but the interpretation within independant H&S outfits or companies . This carry on is not the way HSE intended things to be.

 

Bob

 

YES

 

That is exactly it.

 

Petty bureaucracy, hiding behind health and safety, but in reality nothing to do with it.

 

 

I visited an organisation that has a checksheet that had to be filled in for inspecting the chipper, another one for MEWPs, another one for climbing kits, another one for vehicles..... saws..... climbing irons... on and on.

 

Each checksheet had some titles to fill in and about 15 boxes to tick (except the climbing irons - obviously).

 

"What the hell is all this about" I asked?

 

"It's to prove they do the inspections" I was told proudly.

 

 

In reality all it proved was that someone had filled a form in. No one checked anything because after the forms were filled in they didn't have time to start inspecting stuff.

 

Bureaucratic madness.

[gensetsteve]

YES

 

That is exactly it.

 

Petty bureaucracy, hiding behind health and safety, but in reality nothing to do with it.

 

 

I visited an organisation that has a checksheet that had to be filled in for inspecting the chipper, another one for MEWPs, another one for climbing kits, another one for vehicles..... saws..... climbing irons... on and on.

 

Each checksheet had some titles to fill in and about 15 boxes to tick (except the climbing irons - obviously).

 

"What the hell is all this about" I asked?

 

"It's to prove they do the inspections" I was told proudly.

 

 

In reality all it proved was that someone had filled a form in. No one checked anything because after the forms were filled in they didn't have time to start inspecting stuff.

 

Bureaucratic madness.

 

 

 

But if someone signed the sheet to say its done you can blame them. Thats half the reason for H&S pass the blame down the line. The other half the reason it does actually prevent accidents just not as much as it could while its administered by suits and cuff links. Train some normal working lads and it works well.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

One from today's HSE press release:

 

Tree worker in court after father and son suffer hand injuries | Media centre - HSE

[Mat]

But if someone signed the sheet to say its done you can blame them. Thats half the reason for H&S pass the blame down the line. The other half the reason it does actually prevent accidents just not as much as it could while its administered by suits and cuff links. Train some normal working lads and it works well.

 

Well, strangely this is a misconception by many businesses.

 

Following an accident, the business would need to demonstrate that equipment was suitably checked.

 

Just a filled in check sheet won't cut much mustard.

 

As I said, all that proves is that a form was completed.

 

The business will have the ultimate responsibility to demonstrate adequate systems of work.

 

Take my Heinz hand amputation example - it was Heinz wot got done, not an individual!

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Reflect on what??? How stupid some people are??? The apple had clearly not fallen far from the tree!!!

 

Just tryin the Friday philosophical approach to quell the high level of emotions here.

 

You're right in what you say but not everyone has the bottle to stand up to an employer n say "I'm not using that coz it's dangerous" n that's perhaps where H&S reps / advisors / AA / HSE can help give them a voice.

 

Dunno, don't shoot the messenger tho

 

TTFN..

Paul

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Whoops! Just seen that Paul already posted that link! Dhooh!!

 

Paul, do you know about this:

 

Arboriculture Contractors SHAD

The Arboricultural Association has been awarded the HSE contract to deliver a Safety and Health Awareness Day aimed at arboricultural contractors. This will be a chance for contractors to get a ‘one stop shop’ view of good practice, covering legislation, training, safety guidance, risk assessment, PPE and equipment inspection, plus a practical demonstration session with climbing, site management, supervision, tree rescue and equipment use all under the spotlight.This free event will be held on 17 March 2015 at Stoneleigh Park, Warwicks CV8 2LZ. Places are limited and must be pre-booked. Contact the AA for booking details: Training - Arboricultural Association from January or email at [email protected]

 

Which was posted in HSE bulletin back in Dec? I sent an email to [email protected] on 17 Dec in an attempt to reserve a place - haven't heard anything back yet??

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Whoops! Just seen that Paul already posted that link! Dhooh!!

 

Paul, do you know about this:

 

Arboriculture Contractors SHAD

The Arboricultural Association has been awarded the HSE contract to deliver a Safety and Health Awareness Day aimed at arboricultural contractors. This will be a chance for contractors to get a ‘one stop shop’ view of good practice, covering legislation, training, safety guidance, risk assessment, PPE and equipment inspection, plus a practical demonstration session with climbing, site management, supervision, tree rescue and equipment use all under the spotlight.This free event will be held on 17 March 2015 at Stoneleigh Park, Warwicks CV8 2LZ. Places are limited and must be pre-booked. Contact the AA for booking details: Training - Arboricultural Association from January or email at [email protected]

 

Which was posted in HSE bulletin back in Dec? I sent an email to [email protected] on 17 Dec in an attempt to reserve a place - haven't heard anything back yet??

 

Hi Kevin,

 

Ideally the preference is to book directly at this link Safety & Health Awareness Day for Arboricultural Contractors albeit it may not have been 'up' when you tried to book.

 

I'll check with Tiff n get back to you.

 

Apologies..

Paul

[Mat]

But if someone signed the sheet to say its done you can blame them. Thats half the reason for H&S pass the blame down the line. The other half the reason it does actually prevent accidents just not as much as it could while its administered by suits and cuff links. Train some normal working lads and it works well.

 

If you check out Paul's (and, as it turns out, Kevin's) link, you get a excellent example.

 

Two workers using a bit of unguarded equipment.

 

Clearly the dad knew it was a bit dangerous (well he did if he talks to his son).

 

The employer would have known as well (if he talked to the son).

 

Who gets the prosecution?

 

Father, Son or employer.

 

The employer has a legal, and probably a moral obligation to supply suitable equipment.

 

If the employer had presented the court with a beautifully filled in check sheet, do you think the case would have gone any different?

 

I don't.

[Safety Steve]

Competent in our legislation says " having the appropriate knowledge, skill and experience to carry their assigned task"

 

As for discouraging thinking, most H&S legislation I have read is based on the premise of "correct planning and resourcing of work" ergo thinking it the lack of employee thinking that causes problems.............

 

Common sense is not common practice.............

 

As for the question "where do I get my H&S advice? well that would be myself..............

 

Sound like an excellent approach Stock and you clearly do understand about H&S, the myth of 'common sense' etc