Register of Tree Work Operatives

[Andy Clark]

We all see things differently, its what makes the world go round.

 

 

 

Thanks for the comments whether good or bad they all get read by the steering group.

 

 

 

Cheers

 

 

 

Jaime

 

 

I think the point that seems to have been missed Jaime, as has been the case with schemes of this nature previously within this forum, is that various members involved with the scheme have posted all the glitzy "salesman" type patter in order to "sell" the idea of the scheme, but yet don't appear to have been very forthcoming with much in the way of technical detail or straightforward and robust answers to straightforward and robust questions.

 

Take the links and documents that I've posted for example - nothing more that 5 mins on google, but yet has provided more detail and background of the scheme and its roots, than has been provided by the people that are involved and supposedly keen to sell the scheme and see it progress.

 

Do you not think that it's perhaps better to change tactic, and actually start learning not to underestimate the "market place"?

 

I mean yes, the steering group may well be reading these posts - but lest we not forget that so are the rest of the. 2227 views that this thread had received as of 18.22 this evening.

 

Pleeeeeeeeeeease steering group and Lantra et al, stop making the same old mistakes.

 

 

Sent from my BlackBerry 9700 using Tapatalk

[jaime bray]

Came across some interesting background reading today.........

 

Professional Skills Framework - update - - Arboricultural Association

 

And ......

 

How HSE communicates with the tree industry. (With specific reference to the first of the bullet points within the sub heading "The role of AFAG")

 

Also, references to the scheme within the attachments.

 

 

Sent from my BlackBerry 9700 using Tapatalk

 

From what I can gather the desire to create something that recognised the skills and experience along with everything else was founded back in 2007.

[jaime bray]

So the technical content isn’t complete and getting done voluntarily (read slowly) but you are launching the scheme anyway?????

 

In order for the technical aspects of the jobs criteria and standards and experience and endorsement process to be as all encompassing as possible prior to the pilot launch phase of the scheme then Tony is working on that.

 

Just because something is done voluntarily that does not mean it does not get done.

 

I believe there is a saying related to the streength of a volunteers resolve and heart. But forgive me I cant recall the exact wording.

 

Nothing wrong woth volunteers, especially people with certain skill qualities.

 

THe scheme will be piloted to enable any glitches to hopefully be ironed out.

[Yorkshireman]

out side of the too's and fro's

 

lets hope that the founder of this fantastic web forum Mr S Bullman

 

equally is remunerated by this scheme in the development of a scheme where some will no doubt earn a crust. as it clearly seems you are using this forum as a sounding board to best develop a scheme that is still in development should it get off the ground.

 

as other advertisers have to pay for this kind of exposure let alone the benefits of proofing the concept , etc

Iain

[jaime bray]

some very interesting comments

 

however in my opinion drawing parity between Arb & the Petro chemicals industry is a TOTAL misunderstanding of the issues faced by the grass root companies involved within the amenity / urban Arboriculture sectors.

I haven’t yet seen a petrochemical refinery next to those horses tied at the side of the road with the caravans.

Though the Utility Arb’ sector could perhaps be drawn into industrial comparisons.

 

Comments alluding too the Rogue traders

As I understand these issues are primarily from those Persons who are happy to fly below the radar , i.e. the bodge it & scarper brigade,

 

Those persons are from a diverse cross section of society’s social groups...........

 

These are practioneers who don’t care about rules or the customer anyway.

 

I know of a chap who has traded for years using a chainsaw to carryout aspects of his business & has over the years reduced the length of several fingers thanks to his lack of ability using a chainsaw ,,

This doesnt stop him from competing for clients to my knowledge the HSe have never knocked on his door. Nor has it stopped customers giving his company work.

 

These Traders are in my opinion far from the level of those hard working business people who attempt to do the right thing and make every effort to build and retain their good name and reputation with their client base,

 

 

As we all know we have a multi tiered industry much of which is in practise totally unregulated or in any way policed. until its too late.

 

by stopping the rogue element we do not have a level playing field that could be said for an industry such as the Petro chemical giants .

 

Perhaps as a means to stop this re occurring tim & time again programmes could educate the Home / Land owner that they by law hold liability / responsibility to the safety of those persons they engage and implications of their actions toward property & the person or those person who may come into contact or be influenced by those works

 

is it enough to just highlight poorly executed ,expensive or dangerous works.. ?

 

 

re

 

" If we want our industry to get government funding / recognition in the future we as an industry HAVE to develop this. Failure to do so is not an option."

 

WHO Exactly is WE ??? and in what way would these funds be forth coming ?

 

So who is going to police these levels of professionalism .. ?

 

How will they ensure that they will have sufficient resources and funds to police this ?

 

Are we expecting the insurance industry to do so on our behalf ?

 

their involvement wont resolve the issue of the under radar brigade as most of these are not trained let alone insured !

 

So perhaps the machinery / ppe suppliers who service the sector may enter into a voluntarily control re the sale of equipment to those who are deemed not professional ..?

 

Not Likely ! as they will then have issue staying afloat..

+ the private person has a right to buy equipment for own use , or internet sales form Ebay and overseas sellers all of which are routes for the rougues or none professionals to get their hands on industry grade Kit etc.

 

 

Will the policing body enforce action on clients who employ persons who are not within the scheme ?

 

Given the current economic climate the client often goes for the cheapest quote ..

Not the best,, the cheapest !!

 

if so How ?

 

as it will be expensive to fund the time & effort expended to police such a scheme.

 

this seems unlikely. as The Hse don’t have enough resources now !

 

Will the funds from individual contributions to the scheme be sufficient to fund the implementation , application and policing ?

 

If as is stated previously this scheme is intended for those NEW entrants how long will it take to build funds & how would anyone know who is newbie or an old codger ?

 

.. for example an 18/ 19 year old apprentice currently in the industry is likely to be in this line of work for 20 -25 years and that person wont contribute throughout their career so where’s the money coming from ??? There are an abundance of willing entrants to the industry ,with a finite requirement for people on the ground.

 

Are ‘We the industry’ expecting government to fund this ?

 

Given the level of cut backs to front line Military & Police numbers, ministerial budgets, Local government budgets and the like, I doubt there will be little appetite for funding this scheme, but I maybe wrong

 

Mention was made relevant to growing companies that have grown beyond a man a van & a bod to feed the chipper and whose owner doesn’t now have time to engage on Arbtalk..

These companies also hold a massive cost burden, due to infrastructure costs that are required in achieving such advancements, which leads to their pricing structure increasing to cover such items as capital expenditure , rent rates , wages , in ward investments to training, accreditation, equipment consumables, fixed costs- insurance, fuel and other associated costs + a modicum towards making a profit These companies are in the main also required to also add Vat now 20% on top of their infrastructure.

All of which can lead to a price requirement that is not accepted by Businesses , organisation’s and individuals who seek THE MOST COMPETITIVE QUOTE from which there is not a lot left ... so where will another burden lead ?

 

More mechanisation to increase productivity ! = less staff = less members of the scheme

 

or perhaps Exactly to the same result as we have now , a multi layered industry ,

 

excellence is an aspiration which is only acheiveable for those who can afford it..

which can only be afforded if ther income allows this which requires support by their clients .......

So who are these clients that can afford it Petro chemicals sector ? but they dont have many trees. Utilities ?

 

And then we have left over the rest of the industry who have to do their level best to stay in the industry and business they love whilst in competition with operators who are under the radar, who it strikes me are much more profitable than those who comply with a raft of rules regulations & aspirations to achieve more but are restrained due to their income streams.

 

We have within the ranks of our industry some excellent and dedicated practitioners, who irrespective of their age or their prowess ability or academic qualifications

simply want do a good job safely,

 

It would give me great pleasure to see our industry rise in the nations eye, because of reasons above & more besides I doubt this will dramatically alter .. because cash is king and budgets are being squeezed until 2018 and whilst the media strive to talk down the economic recovery there will be desire for the client to take the cheapest option & there in lies the issue..

 

I do not believe this is an issue that industry that can change solely

without the support of the client base .. and without that fundamental change I see a multi tier future for many many years ahead.

 

Those who dont care / those who care but cant afford to comply & those lucky enough to have a chioce..

 

Some of the most successfully businesses are not driven by academics as this is a practical industry, we can all talk about the influences risk hazards & health matters and how all these affect the built environment we have constructed .. the simple fact remains without the operatives then this industry is stuffed

many of the best operators it has been my pleasure to see & work with are far from academic many of these people struggle with paperwork let alone study for qualifications many other don’t see the need as they've been at the game too long and/or can’t achieve these qualifications due to learning ability issues. ie dyslexia

 

It would therefore in my opinion be totally wrong of the industry to put an academic Glass ceiling above these peoples heads.

 

There are many dyslexics & none academics in Arboriculture that’s why they are here

As it is an outdoor career that keeps them physically fit & offers a mental challenge like no other can.

 

please remember these people are Professionals too….

 

best regards Iain

 

Good post,

 

Policing will be carried out by a multitude of groups/sectors/people, it is hoped that a certain element of the scheme will be industry regulated.

 

Evidence or endorsements that are made by people; be they managers staff, team mates, or if circumstances permit; clients, will be checked at particular phases by admin staff that are to be provided by the R2 committee acquiring the services of lantra staff, software and technical support.

 

There are people who drive around on fake licenses, gasmen who arent corgi, but i know a few plumbers who have informed the appropriate authority of false corgi/gas safe companies. I would hope that if someone had commited themselves and the required time to adopting the R2 scheme that they would inform the relevant person of any activity they deemed unsavioury.

 

A grievance and complaints proceedure will be implemented for a multitude of issues and circumstances.

Edited January 31, 2013 by jaime bray

[Yorkshireman]

Good post,

 

Policing will be carried out by a multitude of groups/sectors/people, it is hoped that a certain element of the scheme will be industry regulated.

 

Evidence or endorsements that are made by people; be they managers staff, team mates, or if circumstances permit; clients, will be checked by admin staff that are to be provided by the R2 committee acquiring the services of lantra staff, software and technical support.

 

There are people who drive around on fake licenses, gasmen who arent corgi, but i know a few plumbers who have informed the appropriate authority of false corgi/gas safe companies.

 

A grievance and complaints proceedure will be implemented for a multitude of issues and circumstances.

 

thanks for the endorsement this is something that I am passionate about , as you may note from our new training provision. Arbschool

 

I note from your response that you expect the industry to self police , which forgive my misunderstanding of the impact but thats what happens now !!

 

so a casual observer might ask ... why would industry want it to be more complex !

 

self police now or self police later wiith more costs ,,,, >?

[jaime bray]

out side of the too's and fro's

 

lets hope that the founder of this fantastic web forum Mr S Bullman

 

equally is remunerated by this scheme in the development of a scheme where some will no doubt earn a crust. as it clearly seems you are using this forum as a sounding board to best develop a scheme that is still in development should it get off the ground.

 

as other advertisers have to pay for this kind of exposure let alone the benefits of proofing the concept , etc

Iain

 

It really is not like that, this scheme is 'anticipated' for the benefit of the industry, for those that wish to partake, and certainly not for the benefits of pockets. I am unaware of what previous schemes have tried to have been set up and whether the intention was to make money from these schemes, that possibleyseem to be leading many people down the route of the commercialtiy of this, but rest assured if this was about a money maker for the R2 commitee i would walk away now.

 

I whole heartedly acknowledge that his scheme needs to fund its self, but it will not be funding a lavish lifestyle to those that are volunteering their time.

 

Once this scheme is up and running I anticipate my personally attending any review meetings and that is it. This is being developed by volunteers who see a need for something that aligns with the professional development frameworks that other industrys within the landbased sector are/ have implemented.

Edited January 31, 2013 by jaime bray

[Drew87]

thanks for the endorsement this is something that I am passionate about , as you may note from our new training provision. Arbschool

 

I note from your response that you expect the industry to self police , which forgive my misunderstanding of the impact but thats what happens now !!

 

so a casual observer might ask ... why would industry want it to be more complex !

 

self police now or self police later wiith more costs ,,,, >?

Haha, Awesome Post.!! I left London due to a big raise in Bodge It n Run traders, with Two Groups of People booming in Unlicenced "Arborists" .. I do Back Licence Policing FP.!!! and About Time.!!

[jaime bray]

thanks for the endorsement this is something that I am passionate about , as you may note from our new training provision. Arbschool

 

I note from your response that you expect the industry to self police , which forgive my misunderstanding of the impact but thats what happens now !!

 

so a casual observer might ask ... why would industry want it to be more complex !

 

self police now or self police later wiith more costs ,,,, >?

 

Is it a case of expecting the industry to self police? it would be of much value to the industry if it did. It is hoped.

 

Reference self police now or later im am unsure of what you mean

Edited January 31, 2013 by jaime bray

[jaime bray]

Haha, Awesome Post.!! I left London due to a big raise in Bodge It n Run traders, with Two Groups of People booming in Unlicenced "Arborists" .. I do Back Licence Policing FP.!!! and About Time.!!

 

What is licence policing FP, what does FP stand for?

 

Thanks