Using silky... Unskilled labour?

[Big J]

As suggested, perhaps a situation best resolved in private, however the advent of this thread precludes that option to a degree.

 

It's very simple (particularly as we've flown a little close to the sun in years gone by regarding the gangmasters legislation). The estate require the use of chainsaws to comply with legislation that if contravened results in hefty fines (citing Arniston House and £16k penalty as an example). If we do not use chainsaws, we are removed from site and no more work is forthcoming (best case scenario). I then have no work, and you have no work. For the sake of one's personal feelings regarding formative pruning, it is not worth the hassle. The very fact that the estate is prepared to spend so much money on non-profitable (in the short to medium term) forestry is commendable. If they want it done a certain way, we do it that way.

 

David, if you have any further questions or need any further clarification, please PM or call me.

[codlasher]

Andy Collins. I agree totally with your last line;

"(I feel discussing this in a correct and proper manner may help eventually move this forward, hopefully the right people in the right places may even come across such a discussion on this forum? Who knows? We can live in hope.)"

I have taken a step back from the firing line to do a 'five year plan' for my family. By dong this I can almost see the wood for the trees. I do find it a very rare occurrence now days to find an Agent who is courageous enough to even mention the word 'disagree' with any authority, it is a mine-field out there and keeping ones head down, gathering the grants and doing everything 'by the book', is simply the easy thing to do. I think the days when country gentlemen/land owners got their hands dirty or knew their contractors by name is, sadly, long gone. The result is this layer of indifference that one has to comply with! Those who were the above seem to be either too old to argue any more or six foot under.

Being the eternal optimist I do live in hope!

 

Using the correct method and the best tools to do the finest job should NEVER be questioned, or be dismissed by inappropriate ruling, that is simply WRONG. Those who are advocating anything contrary to this should be questioning their position and supporting, not condemning, those doing the work.

Codlasher

[Andy Collins]

I think that the answer is to join the FCA, get this moved forward, get an exemption for forestry, get at least some of the meddlesome beurocracy out of our jobs, get some common sense back in. Falling out amongst contractors and subbies over the issue is not the way forward, nor will it get it resolved.

[PhilBeech]

Sorry to rain on the parade, but I think forestry is still GLA regulated, albeith they are taking a "tread lightly approach", whatever that means. If you read the FCA article it states the the minister would like to see forestry removed, not that it has been. We are still required to have a license (unfortunately). I for one, will jump for joy the day that I am not required to have a license.

 

Totally agree with all the sentiments on hand saws being best for formative pruning, I've nothing to add to that that hasn't been said already. What I would like to add is that GLA regulations are not based on any form of actual skill level. The dividing line is simply hand tools are unskilled and mechanical tools are skilled - I know this does not make sense, but that's the way it is. In this context I think you would need a license. There is one possible get out clause, which states that if you are normally employed in an exempted manner (ie on mechanical tools) you may use hand tools for up to 12 days in any one three month period. So.... if its less than 12 days work and you're normally employed on the saw you should be fine.

 

The simplest way to find out for sure is call the GLA. If I'm wrong on this and you don't need a license please let me know. I'll be delighted to be wrong on this one.

 

Absolutely the right answer, check it out with GLA yourself else you could find yourself in a whole heap of trouble.

[Spruce Pirate]

I think that the answer is to join the FCA, get this moved forward, get an exemption for forestry, get at least some of the meddlesome beurocracy out of our jobs, get some common sense back in. Falling out amongst contractors and subbies over the issue is not the way forward, nor will it get it resolved.

 

I would like to second that. It would make an unusual, and pleasant, change for the beuraucracy in my life to be reduced rather than increased! I believe the removal of forestry from the GLA remit is currently at the stage of going through parliament, how it will be resolved is yet to be seen. We can but hope for a swift and sensible conclusion to the matter. Knowing my luck forestry will be removed the day after I renew my license!

[Andy Collins]

Ok, so the initial query was whether using hand tools is deemed "unskilled" in the GLAs eyes. Now I'm not wishing to cover the ground already covered in this, but endeavour to continue a reasoned discussion.

The exclusion from GLA licence mentioned on the GLA website is for the employment of "a skilled worker, eg a qualified slaughterman to work in an abattoir, or an individual skilled worker such as a shepherd or herdsmen" would not a qualified certificated self employed tree worker, be it forester or arborist, fall under this exclusion? Would it not also be totally irrelevant which tools the aforementioned skilled worker choose to use in the course of his duties, after all, he is a skilled worker and as such would choose the correct tool in any application, and use it in a correct manner?

[Spruce Pirate]

The exclusion from GLA licence mentioned on the GLA website is for the employment of "a skilled worker, eg a qualified slaughterman to work in an abattoir, or an individual skilled worker such as a shepherd or herdsmen" would not a qualified certificated self employed tree worker, be it forester or arborist, fall under this exclusion? Would it not also be totally irrelevant which tools the aforementioned skilled worker choose to use in the course of his duties, after all, he is a skilled worker and as such would choose the correct tool in any application, and use it in a correct manner?

 

I think in theory you may be right in this, but in the real world we have all rolled over and not challenged it. It is either easier to get a license or to risk it without a license, especially if most of your work is in a non-regulated sector. In effect I'm not so sure that the exclusion applies, for example, I've had three guys plant trees for me, one with MSc two with BSc, the MSc in Forest Ecology & Management and one BSc in Environmental Science (the other BSc is in an unrelated field). Both of these degrees would put the guys in the "skilled worker" category (in reality way over-qualified), however, planting still requires a GLA license.

 

I think in the context of the GLA they count things which require a certificate as "skilled" and things which are un-certified as "un-skilled", hence the broad brush distinction between hand tools and mechanical tools. Many of us, myself very much included, object to this - pruning and planting (hedge laying was also mentioned in an earlier post) are all jobs where the difference between an un-skilled worker and a skilled worker will very quickly become obvious.

[Iain Prentice]

If the work has to be done with a chainsaw are the managers aware that you should not use a chainsaw above shoulder height? Pruning height will be somewhat limited. Unless a little platform is carried from tree to tree! Like the ones used in supermarkets to stack shelves.

[Big J]

Situation resolved. Speaking to the forestry foreman, so long as we have chainsaws on site, are wearing the correct PPE and use the chainsaws occasionally (for removing failing/undesirable trees) we should be OK. The whole situation is bloody stupid if you ask me as it's an exercise in legislative compliance rather than best practice, but I suppose hoops are there to be jumped through.

[gensetsteve]

Situation resolved. Speaking to the forestry foreman, so long as we have chainsaws on site, are wearing the correct PPE and use the chainsaws occasionally (for removing failing/undesirable trees) we should be OK. The whole situation is bloody stupid if you ask me as it's an exercise in legislative compliance rather than best practice, but I suppose hoops are there to be jumped through.

 

And there is a saying "the customer is always right when he pays on time"