Large Beech Failure

[ScottF]

Both, but far more often in the roots. I can think of literally dozens of instances I've recorded over the last 10-12 years where this has been the case.

 

What I would say is that I also often see it as a "syndrome" with other things, like honey fungus, for instance.

 

Where you've seen it fail with Kretzsch, has it been the roots or lower trunk region ?

 

 

 

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[ScottF]

Where was the first picture taken on the tree?

 

No snotty black mess or any fruiting bodies at base . Tree was in full leaf but had suffered some crown dieback . Spalting was consistent all the way from top of trunk to bottom and wood was solid . I would have taken the decision to climb which is concerning me . [ATTACH]101667[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]101668[/ATTACH]

[born2trot]

Where was the first picture taken on the tree?

 

I would say roughly about 1 meter from the base . Was the only blemish i could see and curiously at one of them white spots . Looked at the merip thread but this tree hasnt tried to lay down what looks like characteristic retrenching roots nor buttressing ?

[born2trot]

P.S.. I'm sure the root plate is a red herring in this instance , really soft soil and disturbed / landscaped ground

[Guss109]

:sneaky2:Cheers Graham I've been rumbled now you've got a photo of me working:blushing:

[David Humphries]

Certainly looks consistent with other beech I've seen failed with extensive K. deusta in evidence. The spalting looks fairly consistent with my observations on beech failed and felled with K deusta as well.

 

Spalting was consistent all the way from top of trunk to bottom and wood was solid ]

 

 

 

From my experience, I'm fairly sure that it's not usual to note spalting associated with the decay of Kretzschmaria duesta present all the way up a trunk to the canopy break.

 

Although I have noted both the grey/white asexual stage and the black fruiting stage of Kretsch on exposed wood in cavities off the ground.

 

I have (now that I've pondered a bit more) noted fruiting bodies of K. Duesta out along the exposed roots on standing dead trees, perhaps acting saprophytically.

Still not been aware of a root failure due to what I would perceive to be a primary colonisation of the K.

 

 

Are you aware of any literature that states it as being associated with root failure Scott?

 

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[ScottF]

I think separating out the primary and secondary agencies in the tricky bit, Dave. When a tree's in a bad enough way for it to fail, I generally observe more than one agent present. When you have a syndrome of a number of potential pathogens in a tree, whose to say which is going to be the straw that broke the camel's back? I looked at a beech the other week (which I have to go back and PiCUS, which is showing early Kd, Meripilus (a rare local case) and a young Ganoderma. If it were to go over, could we be 100% sure which one did it? I don't know.

 

With respect to the spalting, I condemned a sycamore literally within falling distance of my humble office which was riddled with Kd and the spalting went all the way up the first break at about 8 metres. The stumps's still there, so I could post an image of it. I must admit, it was a very advanced case, with obvious fruiting bodies up above head height.

 

In terms of beech with full root plate failure as was shown in these images, I have certainly seen a good number, beech and sycamore (less so) around here where the key visible causal agent was Kd, with fruiting bodies being seen and the remaining roots being a mess of filmy sheets of black chitin. Like you suggest the Kd could be working either saprophytically, or maybe in a syndrome with other fungi for which direct evidence wasn't visible. It could be that they fail earlier in the decay process here because it's extremely windy. Who knows?

 

I've always found the literature on tree failure pretty patchy, vague, often contradictory and frequently prone to generalisation. One of the better sources I'd go to, David Lonsdale, reckons the following:

 

Extract from ‘Principles of tree hazard assessment and management’ by David Lonsdale 1999:

 

“….K.deusta induces a brittle ceramic-like fracture. This can occur in main stems or root systems, since the fungus is exceptional amongst ascomycetes in being able to grow in the central wood of very large trees.

Fracture often occurs before an advanced white-rot has developed, so that the fracture surface can be quite hard.

 

The seat of the decay within the tree is usually at the stem base, where in some cases the fungus appears to have entered through a wound. In such cases, it can extend 4m or more up the stem, as well as into the roots. It can also enter via the roots, eventually causing windthrow.

 

This is a particularly dangerous decay fungus, partly because its fruit bodies are often overlooked, also because of its very common occurrence and wide host range, and finally because of the type of decay that it causes. The brittle fracture associated with this decay often occurs with no warning of incipient failure, and without the compensatory thickening that can occur with fungi which cause selective delignification (e.g. Ganoderma spp.). Except in very advanced cases, this decay cannot be detected with a stress wave timer and may also escape detection by certain kinds of mechanical probe.”

 

 

From my experience, I'm fairly sure that it's not usual to note spalting associated with the decay of Kretzschmaria duesta present all the way up a trunk to the canopy break.

 

Although I have noted both the grey/white asexual stage and the black fruiting stage of Kretsch on exposed wood in cavities off the ground.

 

I have (now that I've pondered a bit more) noted fruiting bodies of K. Duesta out along the exposed roots on standing dead trees, perhaps acting saprophytically.

Still not been aware of a root failure due to what I would perceive to be a primary colonisation of the K.

 

 

Are you aware of any literature that states it as being associated with root failure Scott?

 

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[ScottF]

Ground disturbance is the first thing I look for when a tree's not looking well or has assumed the horizontal. Even patching in nearby hard standings can be indicative of possible root disturbance. As would signs of very wet ground, where indicator plants intolerant of such conditions are seen suggesting novel or occasional rather than persistent waterlogging which the tree might have adapted to. Or signs of compaction for that matter. In summary, it's very often that a human has done something to the roots that's gotten the ball rolling.

 

 

P.S.. I'm sure the root plate is a red herring in this instance , really soft soil and disturbed / landscaped ground

[David Humphries]

Thanks for taking the time Scott, I don't have access to anything during the weekend.

 

You're right about literature being patchy though.

Occasionally find in conversation with authors that either they have changed their opinions at some point or have stated information in text that is sometimes only part of the picture.

 

Would be interested in your image if you can dig it out at some point.

 

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[ScottF]

That's partly why these forums are so useful.

 

I'll take another pic of the stump tomorrow.

 

S

 

 

Thanks for taking the time Scott, I don't have access to anything during the weekend.

 

You're right about literature being patchy though.

Occasionally find in conversation with authors that either they have changed their opinions at some point or have stated information in text that is sometimes only part of the picture.

 

Would be interested in your image if you can dig it out at some point.

 

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