best practice Vs working practice

[Tony.Price]

agree with everything on here,but how about reducing a conifer hedge?. I am pretty good with not using a saw one handed, I put time into work positioning to avoid it when I can. I rarely cut and hold on any jobs, but how about Conifers?.

Your average Leyland hedge blows everything out of the water. Cut and hold/cut and chuck is the order of the day and as for secondary anchoring....forget it. Tree surgeons sleeves and chainsaw gloves might help a bit, but I know many people who have cut themselves over the years working like we all do in this way.

Another example, would you use a 6 wrap prussik to back up a lowering device/fig 8 or munter hitch on a type C 3 man rescue?....in training/assessment yes, in a real life rescue when seconds count...I personally would not.

Best practice is the standard we should all aspire to of course, but price driven work practices will always make us take a line between doing everything by the book and getting the job done in the time allowed by the job-price.

 

I agree that conifer hedges are awkward at best providing little in the way of secondary anchors. This should not stop use trying though, after all we can only do what is reasonable.

 

On my risk assessments years since it was commonly noted that a steel lanyard was to be utilized wherever a secondary anchor point was not available in a restricted hedge topping job. Usually passed around several small dia, and already stumped stems 'twice' to prevent it being lifting off (do what is reasonable in the circumstances). We also used a groundsman with rod & hook to direct growth to reduce the use of one hand on the saw (potentially a much quicker method).

 

A three man rescue in my experience gives the groundsman (third man) ample time to back up and ensure the safe decent of his colleagues (I would not expect any less of my groundsman of over 10 years. This has been done by him whilst the rescuer (me) ascends the tree. A rehearsed rescue plan in the work place would elevate any such concerns of time in the installation of a system. Can also be a laugh every so often role playing scenarios.

 

I met a couple of self employed guys only last week that had a great attitude towards our industry. They would sooner (take the hit) work a few extra hours a day and do there work safely, looking out for each other than take such short cuts. If only we all had this attitude, (me included in my earlier years of climbing) our insurance premiums would be a lot cheaper, and we would hurt much less at the end of each day.

 

I understand very well the strains we are all under to be competitive and it is difficult to say no at times especially as we have got away with it so many times. It is only through reminders such as incidents and near misses that the need to say no is reiterated to use; If, we get that second chance!

 

Don't put your self and those around you at any unnecessary & avoidable risk of harm. Many have, and we should learn from their misfortune.

 

Does anyone have any story's to tell?

[skyhuck]

I agree that conifer hedges are awkward at best providing little in the way of secondary anchors. This should not stop use trying though, after all we can only do what is reasonable.

 

On my risk assessments years since it was commonly noted that a steel lanyard was to be utilized wherever a secondary anchor point was not available in a restricted hedge topping job. Usually passed around several small dia, and already stumped stems 'twice' to prevent it being lifting off (do what is reasonable in the circumstances). We also used a groundsman with rod & hook to direct growth to reduce the use of one hand on the saw (potentially a much quicker method).

 

A three man rescue in my experience gives the groundsman (third man) ample time to back up and ensure the safe decent of his colleagues (I would not expect any less of my groundsman of over 10 years. This has been done by him whilst the rescuer (me) ascends the tree. A rehearsed rescue plan in the work place would elevate any such concerns of time in the installation of a system. Can also be a laugh every so often role playing scenarios.

 

I met a couple of self employed guys only last week that had a great attitude towards our industry. They would sooner (take the hit) work a few extra hours a day and do there work safely, looking out for each other than take such short cuts. If only we all had this attitude, (me included in my earlier years of climbing) our insurance premiums would be a lot cheaper, and we would hurt much less at the end of each day.

I understand very well the strains we are all under to be competitive and it is difficult to say no at times especially as we have got away with it so many times. It is only through reminders such as incidents and near misses that the need to say no is reiterated to use; If, we get that second chance!

 

Don't put your self and those around you at any unnecessary & avoidable risk of harm. Many have, and we should learn from their misfortune.

 

Does anyone have any story's to tell?

 

:confused1:Really please give examples of accidents caused by not being tied in correctly that have lead to PL/EL insurance premiums being higher?????

 

And if this is true things must have dramatically improved in recent years, as my insurance is a fraction of the cost it was 7/8 years ago.

[Paul Jenks]

I agree that conifer hedges are awkward at best providing little in the way of secondary anchors. This should not stop use trying though, after all we can only do what is reasonable.

 

On my risk assessments years since it was commonly noted that a steel lanyard was to be utilized wherever a secondary anchor point was not available in a restricted hedge topping job. Usually passed around several small dia, and already stumped stems 'twice' to prevent it being lifting off (do what is reasonable in the circumstances). We also used a groundsman with rod & hook to direct growth to reduce the use of one hand on the saw (potentially a much quicker method).

 

A three man rescue in my experience gives the groundsman (third man) ample time to back up and ensure the safe decent of his colleagues (I would not expect any less of my groundsman of over 10 years. This has been done by him whilst the rescuer (me) ascends the tree. A rehearsed rescue plan in the work place would elevate any such concerns of time in the installation of a system. Can also be a laugh every so often role playing scenarios.

 

I met a couple of self employed guys only last week that had a great attitude towards our industry. They would sooner (take the hit) work a few extra hours a day and do there work safely, looking out for each other than take such short cuts. If only we all had this attitude, (me included in my earlier years of climbing) our insurance premiums would be a lot cheaper, and we would hurt much less at the end of each day.

 

I understand very well the strains we are all under to be competitive and it is difficult to say no at times especially as we have got away with it so many times. It is only through reminders such as incidents and near misses that the need to say no is reiterated to use; If, we get that second chance!

 

Don't put your self and those around you at any unnecessary & avoidable risk of harm. Many have, and we should learn from their misfortune.

 

Does anyone have any story's to tell?

 

I like your points Tony.

The last paragraph is perhaps the most poignant. 'Unnecessary and avoidable risk of harm'

This industry is chock full of hazards. The challenge is making sure those who work within it are aware of them. New ones crop up all the time. Every day is a school day. Awareness is sadly lacking in many and the ability to recognise hazard situations.

I find that maintaining an internal dialogue through operations is one way to keep me alert to the hazards.( I have employed a couple of guys over the years for whom their internal dialogue was more disturbing than the hazards they regularly exposed themselves to.)

Usually a well trained arborist will make an error when other factors come into play. I know that all my near misses have occurred when I been focussing on a very weak groundcrew in a tough situation or being very tired or showing off. My mantra in the tree, especially on tricky jobs is, 'Little bits'. Take little bits and there is so much more control. Also, if it goes Pete Tonge, there is likely to be less damage.

I have noticed more and more arborists operating with more control and a lot closer to what is proscribed by NPTC/Lantra. This is a good start, though following doctrine is not always good. Another challenge is the length of time a certificate takes to get. A few weeks is nowhere near long enough to embed skills. Maybe the apprenticeship scheme will add to this. Climbers need to be monitored for much more time as the develop.

In the real world, however, this will be a long time coming. I think we, at Jenks, are nearly there with the teamleaders encouraging the newbies and giving time and guidance. Everyone is encouraged to climb and are given opportunities to advance their skills.

[Tony.Price]

A few years ago I had a climber fall through a conifer hedge which was reported to the HSE under RIDDOR.

 

The following years insurance renewal declaration asked me to declare incidents reported to the HSE which I duly did. My premium increased by 15%!

 

One year ago I had an employee fall into a conifer hedge and impaled himself on a previous pruning stub (nearly where the sun don't shine I must add). Again I saw an increase of 8% in my insurance.

 

Closer to home but some years ago I was grounding for my Brother in Law. I could hear the saw rumbling away in the top of the conifers and then in the bottom. I assumed that he had severed the lanyard but when I pulled aside the debris I found my brother in Law on the flaw.

 

All of these incidents and others reported over the years provide the insurance companies with data that they base there premiums on for all businesses carrying out such work. I believe that residential tree related incidents are also included in their figures.

 

This is how the insurance industry was explained to me in the ninety's before the fall out. Does anyone have clarification on this. (The brokers I have found over the years do not always give a definitive answer).

 

Regardless to how they work it out if you make a claim on insurance, expect an increase in your premiums.

[Paul Jenks]

They go to HSE to get their figures. They certainly don't collate their own data. In the insurance business arboriculture is a very small part so they like to use external sources. Yes, domestic incidents are used as you only have to look at the HSE stats to see the type of incidents. Seems that anyone who cuts themself with a chainsaw whilst attacking a piece of wood is described as a 'tree surgeon'

 

No disrespect Tony, but have you considered avoiding conifer hedges.

[skyhuck]

A few years ago I had a climber fall through a conifer hedge which was reported to the HSE under RIDDOR.

 

The following years insurance renewal declaration asked me to declare incidents reported to the HSE which I duly did. My premium increased by 15%!

 

One year ago I had an employee fall into a conifer hedge and impaled himself on a previous pruning stub (nearly where the sun don't shine I must add). Again I saw an increase of 8% in my insurance.

 

Closer to home but some years ago I was grounding for my Brother in Law. I could hear the saw rumbling away in the top of the conifers and then in the bottom. I assumed that he had severed the lanyard but when I pulled aside the debris I found my brother in Law on the flaw.

 

All of these incidents and others reported over the years provide the insurance companies with data that they base there premiums on for all businesses carrying out such work. I believe that residential tree related incidents are also included in their figures.

 

This is how the insurance industry was explained to me in the ninety's before the fall out. Does anyone have clarification on this. (The brokers I have found over the years do not always give a definitive answer).

 

Regardless to how they work it out if you make a claim on insurance, expect an increase in your premiums.

 

But none of those instances lead to a claim, so cost the insurance Co's nothing, why would that lead to an increase in premiums????

 

8 years ago my premiums increased by 300%, not down to any claim on my part, but due to so few Co's offering cover that those that did took their chance to cash in

[Tony.Price]

I like your points Tony.

The last paragraph is perhaps the most poignant. 'Unnecessary and avoidable risk of harm'

This industry is chock full of hazards. The challenge is making sure those who work within it are aware of them. New ones crop up all the time. Every day is a school day. Awareness is sadly lacking in many and the ability to recognise hazard situations.

I find that maintaining an internal dialogue through operations is one way to keep me alert to the hazards.( I have employed a couple of guys over the years for whom their internal dialogue was more disturbing than the hazards they regularly exposed themselves to.)

Usually a well trained arborist will make an error when other factors come into play. I know that all my near misses have occurred when I been focussing on a very weak groundcrew in a tough situation or being very tired or showing off. My mantra in the tree, especially on tricky jobs is, 'Little bits'. Take little bits and there is so much more control. Also, if it goes Pete Tonge, there is likely to be less damage.

I have noticed more and more arborists operating with more control and a lot closer to what is proscribed by NPTC/Lantra. This is a good start, though following doctrine is not always good. Another challenge is the length of time a certificate takes to get. A few weeks is nowhere near long enough to embed skills. Maybe the apprenticeship scheme will add to this. Climbers need to be monitored for much more time as the develop.

In the real world, however, this will be a long time coming. I think we, at Jenks, are nearly there with the teamleaders encouraging the newbies and giving time and guidance. Everyone is encouraged to climb and are given opportunities to advance their skills.

 

I have noticed recently a huge increase in inexperienced guys/girls around here obtain basic tickets to set up as self employed with no pears to learn from. This is evident in the work and worrying at best about there personal safety as many reportedly work on their own!

 

It is a shame new people to our industry around hear anyway are struggling to get opportunities to work with professional companies to learn safe practices.

 

I seam to get more and more requests for work experience. I have had a number of learners report that they have been working for nothing to get experience! Good on them for trying.

[Tony.Price]

They go to HSE to get their figures. They certainly don't collate their own data. In the insurance business arboriculture is a very small part so they like to use external sources. Yes, domestic incidents are used as you only have to look at the HSE stats to see the type of incidents. Seems that anyone who cuts themself with a chainsaw whilst attacking a piece of wood is described as a 'tree surgeon'

 

No disrespect Tony, but have you considered avoiding conifer hedges.

 

None of these incidents where felt to be major by the HSE as thankfully the guys where trained and provisions where made for safe working. On the whole I, as a business in the commercial sector have employed over 30 staff since the 90's, only having 5 re-portable incidents in that time. Most of which I am sure don't usually get reported.

 

I suffered excessive heavy increases as all did years ago and have enjoyed a static provision of insurance in more recent years. I have many reports of accidents due to short cuts around here, my own employees incidents are certainly minor ones!

[Pedroski]

It tickles me.... how experienced people were never inexperienced.

[Tony.Price]

It tickles me.... how experienced people were never inexperienced.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by arbogrunt

agree with everything on here,but how about reducing a conifer hedge?. I am pretty good with not using a saw one handed, I put time into work positioning to avoid it when I can. I rarely cut and hold on any jobs, but how about Conifers?.

Your average Leyland hedge blows everything out of the water. Cut and hold/cut and chuck is the order of the day and as for secondary anchoring....forget it. Tree surgeons sleeves and chainsaw gloves might help a bit, but I know many people who have cut themselves over the years working like we all do in this way.

Another example, would you use a 6 wrap prussik to back up a lowering device/fig 8 or munter hitch on a type C 3 man rescue?....in training/assessment yes, in a real life rescue when seconds count...I personally would not.

Best practice is the standard we should all aspire to of course, but price driven work practices will always make us take a line between doing everything by the book and getting the job done in the time allowed by the job-price.

I agree that conifer hedges are awkward at best providing little in the way of secondary anchors. This should not stop use trying though, after all we can only do what is reasonable.

 

On my risk assessments years since it was commonly noted that a steel lanyard was to be utilized wherever a secondary anchor point was not available in a restricted hedge topping job. Usually passed around several small dia, and already stumped stems 'twice' to prevent it being lifting off (do what is reasonable in the circumstances). We also used a groundsman with rod & hook to direct growth to reduce the use of one hand on the saw (potentially a much quicker method).

 

A three man rescue in my experience gives the groundsman (third man) ample time to back up and ensure the safe decent of his colleagues (I would not expect any less of my groundsman of over 10 years. This has been done by him whilst the rescuer (me) ascends the tree. A rehearsed rescue plan in the work place would elevate any such concerns of time in the installation of a system. Can also be a laugh every so often role playing scenarios.

 

I met a couple of self employed guys only last week that had a great attitude towards our industry. They would sooner (take the hit) work a few extra hours a day and do there work safely, looking out for each other than take such short cuts. If only we all had this attitude, (me included in my earlier years of climbing) our insurance premiums would be a lot cheaper, and we would hurt much less at the end of each day.

 

I understand very well the strains we are all under to be competitive and it is difficult to say no at times especially as we have got away with it so many times. It is only through reminders such as incidents and near misses that the need to say no is reiterated to use; If, we get that second chance!

 

Don't put your self and those around you at any unnecessary & avoidable risk of harm. Many have, and we should learn from their misfortune.

 

Does anyone have any story's to tell?