Running vehicles on red diesel

[wills-mill]

<off topic, relates to Operators Licence Exemptions not Red>

 

http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/taxiproviders/taxioperatorlicensing/vehiclesoutsideoperatorlicencerequirements.htm

What do youlot think of this, especially this paragraph on dual purpose vehicles:

 

"Dual purpose vehicles (eg Land Rovers) & their trailers. Includes Range Rovers, Jeeps, certain Japanese vehicles and those designed to go over rough ground as well as on roads. NOTE: All dual purpose vehicles must not exceed 2040 kg in unladen weight."

 

Note! unladen not gross weight.....

 

and:

 

"*It is also worth knowing that, when towing a trailer behind a vehicle that is around - or slightly below - 3.5 tonnes gross plated weight (e.g Ford Transit/Mercedes Sprinter sized vehicles), if the combined gross plated weights of drawing vehicle and trailer do not exceed 3.5 tonnes or (where there is no gross plated weight) the total unladen weights do not exceed 1,525 kgs, an operators licence will not be required. Please note that any trailer with an unladen weight of less than 1,020 KGs, need not be taken in to account in this calculation."

 

and:

 

" * “A vehicle fitted with a machine, appliance, apparatus or other contrivance which is a permanent or essentially permanent fixture, provided that the only goods carried on the vehicle are:

 

(a) required for use in connection with the machine, appliance, apparatus or contrivance or the running of the vehicle;”

 

(b) to be mixed by the machine, appliance, apparatus or contrivance with other goods not carried on the vehicle on a road in order to thrash, grade, clean or chemically treat grain;

 

© to be mixed by the machine, appliance, apparatus or contrivance with other goods not carried on the vehicle in order to make fodder for animals; or mud or other matter swept up from the surface of a road by the use of the machine, appliance, apparatus or other contrivance”.

 

PLEASE NOTE: The “fixed equipment” exemption relates to vehicles that have equipment that is a permanent or essentially permanent fixture (e.g. a winch or generator) where any other goods carried must be strictly for use in connection with that fixed equipment (e.g. essential tools or equipment, without which that fixture would be unable to function). IMPORTANT: Under current legislation mobile exhibition vehicles, catering vehicles, vehicles with an auger fitted for laying telegraph poles (where the poles are carried on the vehicle), mobile shops and mobile medical screening vehicles are NOT exempt from operator licensing (if they are over 3.5 tonnes gross plated weight), nor are vehicles that do have fixed equipment - but carry goods or burden that is not strictly for use in connection with that equipment, or tow a trailer that is carrying goods or burden. Examples of types of vehicles that may be exempt under the above are *gully sucking vehicles, vehicles with water jetting / shot blasting equipment, cherry pickers (these may also be classed as “tower wagons” (see below)) and road sweepers."

 

This last one is interesting, I talked to an old boy about Matadors, Unipowers etc (old timber 'tractors'/ winch trucks) and he reckoned that any load HAD to be carried on the trailer, putting anything other than the winch cables, chains, c hooks etc on the back of the Matador would have got you nicked. I have actually heard someone say the same about Mogs- as a tractor they shouldn't carry load, only ballast or essential working equipment.

 

I think the reason that many of the machines mentioned above are allowed to run red diesel (as well as O licence exemption) is that technically they should be physically unable to carry or draw goods for haulage and hire/reward.

[Andy Collins]

I think that going by the replies to this thread that there appears to be quite a bit of confusion across the industry as to what can and cant run on red diesel. This probably isnt the general publics fault, more the fact that there seems to be many different official groups involved, each with their own set of rules. I have seen the official letter from HMRC saying that a mog CAN run on red, with the proviso that any produced waste can only be returned to the registered business yard. Yet it seems that VOSA would have a different take on this, the Police probably see it from yet another angle. Surely its about time that the involved agencies got their collectives asses together and got things simplified.

[madmatt]

There are so many angles to look at it from though just because HMRCE issue a letter to say a mog can run on red, doesn't mean VOSA won't make it run on White!

 

We had a letter at work from HMRCE saying we can run our tractor on Red. But because we don't meet Ag or Forestry exemptions and the fact the tractor occasionally tows a trailer and we ocasionally contract back to another government department. We had to have an O licence and run on white, and be subject to drivers hrs legislation.

 

I agree a simple set of rules would be nice but in reality it ain't ever gonna happen! The authorites will allways judge and prosecute on individual basis. So for an individual to be happy their running legallly they need to get written confirmation from HMRCE & VOSA. Police are a pain in the neck, half the time they can't understand the legislation.

[b101uk]

Actually, they can. I've looked at the legality's of this carefully. I run my platorm on red, and I know thats fully legal - and there is nothing I can find in the lawbooks about carrying a load on a platform. I have been thinking about importing yank forestry trucks, 50ft overcenter booms with a chip body - no operators licence needed, and legal to run on red.

 

err wrong, HMRC Notice 75 (note B)

 

"8.9 Mobile cranes

(1) A mobile crane is an excepted vehicle

 

(2) In sub-paragraph (1) above "mobile crane" means a vehicle which is designed

and constructed as a mobile crane and which:

 

(a) is used on public roads only as a crane in connection with work carried on at a

site in the immediate vicinity or for the purpose of proceeding to and from a place

where it is to be or has been used as a crane, and

 

(b) when so proceeding does not carry any load except such as is necessary for

it's propulsion or equipment."

 

mobile cranes, including truck mounted access platforms and mobile concrete pumps, with a revenue weights exceeding 3.5 tonnes.

 

NOTE: if you don’t conform to "B" you don’t have the right to use red as it’s no longer a Mobile crane but a truck, it’s that simple.

 

Also you may tow a trailer BUT only if it is necessary for it's propulsion or equipment relating to being a Mobile crane, i.e. ballast, jibs, slinging, chains, baskets, etc, etc.

 

re: operators licence, if you travel >15miles radius from you base you need an operators licence.

[Mr Ed]

Yeah, i did a bit more research. Thats why I ditched the idea. Thanks for the clarification.

[Buzz]

err wrong, HMRC Notice 75 (note B)

 

"8.9 Mobile cranes

(1) A mobile crane is an excepted vehicle

 

(2) In sub-paragraph (1) above "mobile crane" means a vehicle which is designed

and constructed as a mobile crane and which:

 

(a) is used on public roads only as a crane in connection with work carried on at a

site in the immediate vicinity or for the purpose of proceeding to and from a place

where it is to be or has been used as a crane, and

 

(b) when so proceeding does not carry any load except such as is necessary for

it's propulsion or equipment."

 

mobile cranes, including truck mounted access platforms and mobile concrete pumps, with a revenue weights exceeding 3.5 tonnes.

 

NOTE: if you don’t conform to "B" you don’t have the right to use red as it’s no longer a Mobile crane but a truck, it’s that simple.

 

Also you may tow a trailer BUT only if it is necessary for it's propulsion or equipment relating to being a Mobile crane, i.e. ballast, jibs, slinging, chains, baskets, etc, etc.

 

re: operators licence, if you travel >15miles radius from you base you need an operators licence.

 

 

Interesting to hear of someone that know the definitive answers. Do you work in that industry ?

[b101uk]

FYI:

 

HMRC - Notice 75 is COMPULSORY reading for anyone using Red diesel! As are some of the finance acts witch update/replace the Excepted vehicles in Notice 75 as of 01/04/07 this year and 01/04/08 next year.

 

See section 8, Excepted vehicles.

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk - Notice 75

 

Finance Act 2006

Finance Act 2007

[b101uk]

Interesting to hear of someone that know the definitive answers. Do you work in that industry ?

 

err I work in many industries as I am self employed/owner, started out in quarrying & industrial building rentals witch run them self’s so have plenty of free time, then into arb & forestry witch I gave up doing almost full time in 95 (was only ever a backup tree climber i.e. rescue, but was an 1st class groundy on the ropes etc & operating machine’s) during all that time I was also a mechanic/welder – fabricator/designer so use to equip 4x4 & 6x6 trucks for work in the above for my self etc, I have been running Unimog’s since 91 and currently have a U1600 witch I just keep for bits of agri work and things in the above & I also do repairs on them not that I have ever had to do much to mine just other peoples, I also work in 3D design hence the avatar or silly images like below

 

[Buzz]

Where are you located as mine allways requires the services of a good mechanic !

[b101uk]

I am near Telford – Shropshire.

 

What’s up with your mog then? Is it a "Silver Hornet"