Picus sonic Tomograph

[PhilBeech]

Great pieces of equipment if the data is read correctly. Tend to be used more to investigate extents rather than a tool to condemn.

[Fungus]

Anyone used one? Experience in reading the pictures...? Have you compared the pictures to reality after felling a tree that has been inspected with a Tomograph? Reliability?

 

Tobias,

IME, a valid and reliable reading can only be done by :

- someone who has personally (visually) assessed and monitored the tree before tomographing it,

- has identified the wood degrading macrofungi and the type(s) of woodrot correctly, which in this case is ,

- who has lots of experience with the tree species specific interaction of the fungi with the tree species

- and has often seen the damage done to the tree after it had been felled.

[armybloke]

We use this equipment regularly within our company. Whilst I concede that the piece of equipment is as only as good as the guy operating the equipment it has been a valuable tool for us in determining the depth of decay in known (monitored) trees. This has then provided us with sufficient information to base our management recommendations on. I must point out that the PICUS will not pick up early decay from Ustilina deusta- be aware. The equipment is invasive to the tree. It only gives you a reading of what is going on from where you place the 'pins' so again you will need to carry out many of these on one tree to determine the growth and extent of decay/fungi effect. All in my own opinion I might add!

[Fungus]

1. ... the piece of equipment is as only as good as the guy operating the equipment ... decay in (monitored) trees.

2. I must point out that the PICUS will not pick up early decay from Ustilina deusta- be aware ...

 

Marco,

1. True, especially the intensive training and experience one needs and the (close) monitoring of the body language of the affected tree species.

2. ... and of white rot with selective delignification caused by Ganoderma australe in trees such as Aesculus, Populus and Salix.

[Xerxses]

Thank you for input and valuable opinions.

 

As any tool it's only as good as the person holding it...

 

And as any other invasive or noninvasive tool its important to look at the right spot.

[treeseer]

IME, a valid and reliable tomograph reading can be done by someone who has personally (visually and by sounding) assessed the tree before tomographing it. It is desirable but not necessary--or always possible!-- to identify the wood degrading macrofungi and the type(s) of woodrot correctly,or to have experience with the tree species specific interaction of the fungi with the tree species, or to have often seen the damage done to the tree after it had been felled.

 

Periodic readings indicate decay progression, and contribute to competent assessments. Some decay fungi cannot be identified, some folks don't often get a chance to do autopsies, so how can all that be *necessary* ?? Arboriculture works better with mycology, but it is not always impossible without mycological precision.

[Fungus]

1. IME, a valid and reliable tomograph reading can be done by someone who has personally (visually and by sounding) assessed the tree before tomographing it.

2. It is desirable but not necessary--or always possible!-- to identify the wood degrading macrofungi and the type(s) of woodrot correctly, or to have experience with the tree species specific interaction of the fungi with the tree species, or to have often seen the damage done to the tree after it had been felled. Periodic readings indicate decay progression, and contribute to competent assessments. Some decay fungi cannot be identified, some folks don't often get a chance to do autopsies, so how can all that be *necessary* ??

3. Arboriculture works better with mycology, but it is not always impossible without mycological precision.

 

Guy,

1. IME ? How much (supervised) training and experience in using a tomograph as a diagnostic instrument and reading the data do you personally have then ?

2. So anyone renting or buying a tomograph and reading the manual is qualified to do the job ? Wouldn't it be better to leave this type of assessment to the experienced professionals, who also can integrate mycological expertise into their diagnosis ?

3. What aspects of arboriculture work better with mycology, but are not impossible without mycological precision ?

 

As Marco already said : "the piece of equipment is only as good as the Guy operating the equipment."

Edited October 26, 2011 by Fungus

[Tom Joye]

I agree with what has been said: great piece of equipment, in the hands of a skilled person.

 

As an illustration of the possible limitations of tomographs: a couple of months ago, we organised a tomograph workshop, felling the tree afterwards. The tomograph picked up a large crack and overrated the decay by Ganoderma (Gerrit, since I've been talking to you, I don't dare to say if it's applanatum or australe) in this Quercus rubra.

 

Cracks can be detected by combining acoustic tomography with electrical impedance tomography, but then you need another set of sensors, more software, ...

[Fungus]

As an illustration of the possible limitations of tomographs: a couple of months ago, we organised a tomograph workshop, felling the tree afterwards. The tomograph picked up a large crack and overrated the decay by Ganoderma (Gerrit, since I've been talking to you, I don't dare to say if it's applanatum or australe) in this Quercus rubra.

 

Tom,

Great documentation of the problems in diagnosing the white rot with selective delignification of Ganoderma cf. australe in Q. rubra (and Tilia, Populus, Salix) with tomography as I pointed out before.

And were any FB's present, what did they look like, just big perennial brackets or (also) panic fruiting ? In/on Q. rubra, IME it's close to 100 % G. australe.

[treeseer]

Gerrit, my respected colleague, one last time i'll answer. The lurkers are restless.

1. IME ? How much (supervised) training and experience in using a tomograph as a diagnostic instrument and reading the data do you personally have then ?

Trained with fakopp, arbortom and picus. Used a fakopp for a few weeks on a couple dozen trees. Looking to rent the picus for a month here soon, so I have a better idea which to buy. not an expert, but familiar.

 

2. So anyone renting or buying a tomograph and reading the manual is qualified to do the job ?

 

No, that is leaping to the wrong conclusion with the unkind and invalid assumption that i have inadequate experience, just because it does not match yours. Please be nice to us lower life forms.

 

"Wouldn't it be better to leave this type of assessment to the experienced professionals, who also can integrate mycological expertise into their diagnosis ?"

 

Yes, and it would also be better to have a chicken in every pot(look up Herbert Hoover and the Great Depression, on the brink of a repeat of which we all teeter), and an experienced mycologist/tomographer/uber-arborist in every town. Sad to say, I'd have to go 500+ miles to find one of the few individuals on this continent with more experience in this area than I with my paltryand struggling but still adequate skills.

 

3. What aspects of arboriculture work better with mycology, but are not impossible without mycological precision ?

 

All of the assignments that do not require mycological precision, which is most of them. I am (and was, in print, in NA anyway?) the first to say that the more we know of fungal strategies the better. However all of this tight focus on tssm/tsse, which seems to have good contributions to make to arboriculture, cannot be applied to all cases as the primary approach. imho.

 

To see the tree well, we have to see the fungal activity. but we shan't lose sight of the trees, and our assignments, by focusing too tightly on fungus, or soil conditions, or site conditions like exposure, or tree species, growth habits, etc., characteristics, or maintenance history, or management potential, or all the other factors that go into tree assessment. imho.

 

"As Marco already said : "the piece of equipment is only as good as the Guy operating the equipment."

 

And I would add, "The assessment is only as good as the objectivity of the assessor." The whole tree reaches to the sky and interacts with people, so, with no offense meant to hama or other mycophiles, it does not all fit in the lens of tssm/tsse. imho. I have more to learn in this area, but it does not look like the Holy Grail that will answer all tree questions. Encyclopedic recitations are impressive, but applicability to tree work seems limited.

 

I'll keep posting pics here, but let's agree to disagree on which life form primarily drives the ecosystems--both arborist and forest ecologist may be wrong! Perhaps it is a gnome named Numnutz, or the Martians--there is much that you and i do not know! I won't bore the lurkers further by going through your gauntlets of insulting interrogatives on what appear to be tangential, or tenuously connected, topics any more. To serve my clients and make a living, I have to stay focused on results.

 

it's been fun and all, but time is limited. Ta for now.

Edited October 26, 2011 by treeseer