Inclusional arboriculture- from the top

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Entropy defines the progress from order to chaos over time. Ordered systems become less ordered. Hot flows to cold. Stuff breaks. Its been described as our inbuilt arrow of time. We can see the progress of causality (and therefore time) because we know that things happen in a one way process. We can't get back there from here because everything has changed. As much as I would like the tepid cup of coffee in front of me to spontaneously reheat itself, it ain't gonna happen. Note that physical laws don't prevent it from doing so - they are reversible in any other sense. Its just that entropy doesn't work that way.

 

Life on the other hand creates organisation, it fights entropy. Self organisation as a natural phenomena is quite common. I once spent months on the beaches of Norfolk measuring repeated cusp formations in the sediment that had been created by the waves (in a previous life as a Geographer). Indeed it has been postulated that life might be even be defined as a sustained self organisation of matter. But even complex things like badgers, helicopters, fine malts, ideologies and creeds all degrade in time. Entropy wins because the game is rigged.

 

Essentially, the rules of our game are simple (at least on this level). We resist the inevitable nothing of universal equilibrium for as long as we can, and have a good time doing it.

 

On the plus side Tony, we agree on one thing - there is a flow. Its just not a flow you wanna go with.

 

I am not completley certain what your trying to get across to me/us here?

 

Clear though by the end of this you feel there is a great divide between entropy and inclusionism?

 

Does the fact that heat is absorbed into cold, that of the ice cube in a glass of water prove the lack of validity in the inclusional theory?

 

and hence it is your phylosophy of choice?

 

talk to me, so that I understand exactly what your trying to say here.

[Amelanchier]

To summarise; you stated that "life is flow" and that it follows the path of least resistance. It doesn't - it does quite the opposite, it follows the path of most resistance.

 

The path of least resistance would be to succumb to entropy.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Amelanchier
Keeping it relevant. :)

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

To summarise; you stated that "life is flow" and that it follows the path of least resistance. It doesn't - it does quite the opposite, it follows the path of most resistance.

 

The path of least resistance would be to succumb to entropy.

 

argh, now then....

 

If life does not follow the path of least resitance "symbolicaly liquid" why is it that killers, predators, pathogens et al seek the weak, the streesed those that lack the abilty to, in your terms, fend of entropy?

 

Why do the rivers form the way they do, like viens across the landscape...

 

Why do the branches and roots of a tree "flow in thier given path and form?

 

why does man like in the image i posted above leave his mark upon the landscape in the same flow form?

 

When life is seen through the eys of inclusionism we dont see the struggle against entropy but the transfiguring of our flow, from one form to another, taking the path of least resitance around entropy.

[Albedo]

My greatest concern was what to call it. I thought of calling it ‘information’, but the word was overly used, so I decided to call it ‘uncertainty’. When I discussed it with John von Neumann, he had a better idea. Von Neumann told me, ‘You should call it entropy, for two reasons. In the first place your uncertainty function has been used in statistical mechanics under that name, so it already has a name. In the second place, and more important, nobody knows what entropy really is, so in a debate you will always have the advantage. ”–Conversation between Claude Shannon and John von Neumann regarding what name to give to the “measure of uncertainty” or attenuation in phone-line signals (1949)

 

 

Edit: entropy is the most difficult to understand thing I have ever googled

Edited August 18, 2010 by Albedo

[Mesterh]

Entropy, now this is getting more interesting

 

From what I can see life spends lots and lots and lots of energy creating order from chaos.

 

Therefore the opposite of entropy.

 

Very poorly put across by me of course.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

So with Entropy being such an undefined thing, is tony being subtle about his method/purpose in its introduction i wonder?

 

maybe he thinks i am trying to be clever and is trying to suggest i try harder!

 

mmmmm....

 

the "inclusive view" is accepted and by some very respectable folk I might add, as indeed are many views. Tony, i am a simple man, speak your words not in riddles nor cast clouds of deepening dilema and confusion!

 

As for pauls brash, your not the only one whos confused!

[Albedo]

It seems that if Allan Raynor and the Entropy dudes met there would be a big words and maths fest of thermonuclear propotions.

 

"the system will select the path or assembly of paths out of otherwise available paths that minimizes the potential or maximizes the entropy at the fastest rate given the constraints. This is a statement of the law of maximum entropy" (ref available)

 

Does this agree with what you said about the flow of things Tony S or does it disagree, I'm really not sure. I think it disagrees but it's not in English, hence, I'm not sure.

 

 

Edit: posted at same time Hama, I'm Albedo now mate

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

 

Edit: posted at same time Hama, I'm Albedo now mate

 

and what does albedo mean?

 

iether way your still a new age hippy to me!

[Albedo]

Cheers H

 

I was just about to make a mega post on this topic which I wrote a while ago, but will answer that one first.

 

You may remember from our epic phone chat that I study climate change for fun.

 

Albedo is : the ability of the earths surface to reflect radiation from the sun. So high albedo is snow, low albedo is dark coloured stuff. Its an interesting subject area due to possitive feedback loops and tipping points etc.

 

also somehow I find it quite catchy. I was a new age hippy, now I'm a grumpy old git.

 

Below you will find my mega post on inclusionalism.

[Albedo]

I wrote this ages ago and didn’t post it so some of my points have been made by others. It may still make sense throwing it in now so here we go……

 

Allan is saying that all things are linked and not to be seen as stand alone entities. I think most people see this for themselves. People know that a tree takes nourishment from the soil and returns this to the earth when it dies etc etc.

 

What Allan talks about which takes this one step further is a flow of ‘something’ which links things in some more fundamental way. He also talks about links that are beneficial or natural when things are looked at as a whole and not necessarily harmful as when viewed in conventional ways.

 

As far as I can tell he does not really identify this flow as something which can be measured or quantified. It appears to be just a flow of ‘something’ that we are asked to believe but cannot prove by the use of conventional science.

 

I have spent some chunks of serious time close to nature and had come to a similar conclusion of my own accord. I believe that things are linked in fundamental ways and that mankind has become disconnected from nature.

 

There are cultures around the world who are less disconnected than us. In Europe, the Swedes come to mind. In Nepal, the hill tribes come to mind. I know the people of the high Himalayas by experience.

 

I’m not sure that you and Allan are going about this the right way. By giving this fundamental thing a name and claiming it for himself, Allan, with his ‘inclusionality’ appears to be trying to make a name for himself in the academic world with a bit of paradigm busting.

 

I cycled across France once, from Calais to Bezier on my tod. I cycled all day long for 2 months or so, just sleeping where I ended up each day. I experienced a oneness with nature that was intense and when back in normal life I missed it in a physically palpable way.

 

My recipe for achieving this state has to be done alone as it forces you to empty your mind with no one to talk to and after a while nothing much left to think that you haven’t thought already. It forces a state of meditation where your mind is open and receptive.

 

When I am back here at work, in my normal life I become disconnected again. I feel this very badly and start to feel damaged and broken. I have to do a big mission again to reconect myself whenever I start to feel like this. I am long overdue for a healing chunk of reconnecting.

 

Is this something to do with what you are on about, or am I off track?

 

In the light of more recent posts I would add that I believe that this ‘thing’ does not belong to science, neither inclusional nor entropy-ism.