V.T.A images

[Ian Leach]

Found a training video for gnome huntin'. Doesn't seem as technical as yours though.

 

YouTube - Osama bin Gnome hunt

 

 

You get them in all trades the rogue traders of the world, Some people call them scum some pikeys but being professional always works i find. There just wannabes they never last very long but we have to do something with the youth of today

[Bundle 2]

Mmm....Ive seen examples, one after the next, with visible fluting that is typical of "torsional stress" as in the pictures posted at the start of this thread.

I am sorry ol mate, I dont for a moment think they are all cracked/damaged inside in the way you have (quite properly perhaps ) described......

Dont bother replying in length Hama. I am NOT having a go...just my observation.

cheers. Tim.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Mmm....Ive seen examples, one after the next, with visible fluting that is typical of "torsional stress" as in the pictures posted at the start of this thread.

I am sorry ol mate, I dont for a moment think they are all cracked/damaged inside in the way you have (quite properly perhaps ) described......

Dont bother replying in length Hama. I am NOT having a go...just my observation.

cheers. Tim.

 

no problem fella, we all ahve our own views, and I wasnt suggesting that all trees showing torsional stresses are for the chop or cracked right through.

 

But the case in question IS, and as soon as I got the tool to prove it I am going to because if theres one thing I cant bear its being made to lok

ok a complete tool! i probably deserve it, maybe I try too hard to have interesting threads.

 

As for the gnome theory, personaly I think the trees dryad was sitting up there with a stack of cheap iceland partie packs got a little over indulgent developed a fat backside and the limb it was sat on failed. simples!

[Bundle 2]

no problem fella, we all ahve our own views, and I wasnt suggesting that all trees showing torsional stresses are for the chop or cracked right through.

 

But the case in question IS, and as soon as I got the tool to prove it I am going to because if theres one thing I cant bear its being made to lok

ok a complete tool! i probably deserve it, maybe I try too hard to have interesting threads.

 

As for the gnome theory, personaly I think the trees dryad was sitting up there with a stack of cheap iceland partie packs got a little over indulgent developed a fat backside and the limb it was sat on failed. simples!

 

Thats a shame man...Arbtalk and the clash of ignorance & ego is responsible for the demise of another tree......We're so Professional (NB Sarcasm )

Its a bit like the AA bashing that gets oh so boring

[Amelanchier]

I promise you those cracks are active, yes I do know, maybe you dont, thats the difference between you and me, do not tell me what i know! you wasnt stood at the foot of this tree!

 

I'm not telling you what you know. I'm telling what you don't know because you haven't undertaken an investigation.

 

The crack is active, signified by the pointy ribs, and extremely rapid growth over them shown in new fresh smooth bark.when they start to "snub nose" THAT is when they are stable. Given a wind in the right direction and in resonance, these cracks could open right up and result in a failure, it is that simple.

 

I quote from "In the face of failure" by C. Mattheck P141-

 

"Cracks in the tree also cause extaordinarly large stresses before the tip of the crack. The nearer the tip of the crack is to the cambium, the thicker are the annual rings formed there and the wider are the light coloured increment strips. with pointy-nosed ribs the increment strips are extremley wide and the bark on the rib is thin. If the crack has already been closed by several annual rings, narrower annual rings will now be formed because of the smaller stress percieved by the cambium, the increment strip will be abscent and course bark will cover the rib"

 

The increment strip is obvious as are the extra thick annual rings at the point of stress, hence these cracks are active. sure a stress wave timer would be the next step, to confirm but it would merely be a formality in my view.

 

The crack is not active because the crack is not changing. The adaptive growth is active as Mattheck describes in your quote above but the crack is not. It can't be because the cambium has grown over it!

 

And there is the crux of my point - how serious is the crack in terms of the remainder of the tree? We don't know and we should admit that. We're allowed to do that you know!

 

The tree has a little potential to over come the defect, but it is hindered by its extreme hieght and difficulty in getting resources to the area of stress. The tree has a very thin diameter for its hieght having pushed as fast as it can through the canopy of surounding broadleafs, close (within 30ft) of a road with around 20-50, probably more on a holiday, poeple passing daily. A footpath also passes by within 15 ft inside the wood perimeter.

 

if i was responsible for making the call on this one, in its position and due to its form i would fell it leaving a monolith for habitat. Why? because if i was called into investigate the failure of this tree after it killed somone I would have to tell the court that in my opinion, it had visible defects and hence it was an "avoidable event"

 

Many things are avoidable, what's important to the bloke in the silly wig is how reasonable it is to avoid it. In the situation you describe it may indeed be reasonable to remove the forseeable failure however, different tree / different place... In pragmatic terms - your recommendations are perfectly sensible and it's likley that I would spec some work also, but I wouldn't phrase my recommendations with the same confidence. I also wouldn't bother saying I'd followed the VTA criteria when I hadn't.

 

Indeed, the weight of your statement to your theoretical court could be jepordised by the defence pointing out that your assessment of the tree was an educated guess rather than a detailed examination. After all - considering Poll v Bartholomew we should all be on our hands and knees in ditches checking for rare decay fungi on the underside of buttresses.

[Amelanchier]

Thats a shame man...Arbtalk and the clash of ignorance & ego is responsible for the demise of another tree......We're so Professional (NB Sarcasm )

Its a bit like the AA bashing that gets oh so boring

 

Ha Tim, am I ignorance or ego?

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

i said the exam (procedure of investigation) would be a formality!

 

I would follow formality if it was serious, and my arse was on the line.

 

Tony, i am certain your a very skilled and competant bloke, but so am I, i may not own a resitograph or a fractometer etc (yet) but I have spent my life amoung trees, and cleared up enough failures to know what I am talking about.

 

with regards to poll v bartholemew, i believe it was ruled that in order to cover ones liability an assesor would have to be at level 2 whatever that means, they didnt suggest that every inspection would require a change in VTA or inspection proceedure, just that the inspector in this case was NOT qualified to be doing an assesmnet of tree condition.

 

I am not "qualified" therefore my opinion is useless, simples.

 

Ive never met an arb without an ego!

[Amelanchier]

Hey, its all good. I disagee is all, but claims of certainty bring out the pedant in me...

 

With regard to case law, P v B was along those lines but the additonal implication was that a "level 2" inspector (theres a needlessly confusing construct) would have found the small P. fraxinea bracket on the subject tree by scrabbling around in the bramble covered ditch whilst conducting a estate wide roadside survey. Many in the industry (included little old me) disgaree with the reasonableness of that.

 

And actually the recent decision in Atkins v Scott suggests that sufficient experience in tree inspections without quals is perfectly acceptable in such instances so don't write yourself off!

 

Tim doesn't have an ego, he's typically self depricating and humble

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Hey, its all good. I disagee is all, but claims of certainty bring out the pedant in me...

 

With regard to case law, P v B was along those lines but the additonal implication was that a "level 2" inspector (theres a needlessly confusing construct) would have found the small P. fraxinea bracket on the subject tree by scrabbling around in the bramble covered ditch whilst conducting a estate wide roadside survey. Many in the industry (included little old me) disgaree with the reasonableness of that.

 

And actually the recent decision in Atkins v Scott suggests that sufficient experience in tree inspections without quals is perfectly acceptable in such instances so don't write yourself off!

 

Tim doesn't have an ego, he's typically self depricating and humble

 

the only certainty in life is death and taxes!

 

I can understand why you get upset at "certainty" but I am rarely stupid enough to proclaim certainty when I have a slight doubt, you should give more faith in an individuals self confidance, it isnt always unfounded!

 

I am not fully versed on the p.v.b case seems it was little unfair if that was the case, though in all fairness I would have kicked aside brambles to see the base of a large tree, but thats me.

 

When i passed my VTA training I asked about this "level 2 " rubbish and I was told that it is not "recognised" and thereofre of little use, and to go do the three day lantra instead! I am still paying for the beg borrow and stealing i done for the VTA workshop, and it will be some time before i get on the Lantra one.

 

It is not so much ego with me as utter and total fustration of being in an industry that does not recognise my ability until I have passed a "recognised" cert, who the hell decides that I am "not qualified"

 

Whilst I can not walk around an arboretum and reel off latin for the exotics, or take a soil sample into a lab and give a chemical structural textural report (yet) I have never had an interest in that, nor intend that to be the basis of my career, does knowledge of latin for some obscure tree or my ability to describe plant cells determine my "skill level"

 

I cant make money as an assesor, as i will not be recognised, so i will continue to struggle along on peanuts bending over backwards to pay the fees the courses etc until someone finaly says tone, your there now mate we know you know, now go do it!

 

I am fustrated, and have a lot of aggression in me, caused by the fight for my right to do consulting work, i am a nobody it would seem, but you bet your bottom dollar that isnt Always going to be so, this kiddo, is a grafter, if it takes me ten years from now, i will make it, and when i do, i will no longer take the crap from anyone, for I will have earnt the right to say I do know!

[gibbon]

I have a vision of you waving a sword above your head as you wrote that last post