Free will or lack of.......

[onetruth]

6 minutes ago, the village idiot said:

(1) Interesting. So do you think that there are (or can be) any occurances in the mind/brain that are not initiated solely by the previous state of the mind/brain?

 

In other words. Does the brain have the ability to conjure up a completely novel occurence, independant of past history?... 

 

(2) ...Even if it could, I would still argue that this doesn't give you free will, as this (out of the ether) input would still be just as automatic as anything else.

(1) Probably not, that would defy the causality that all temporal things seem to depend on.  That does assume, however, that cause-and-effect is universal (or true at all).  I don't think we can know that.  In physics for instance, quanta and the big-bang don't function causally, but nor are they temporal in the way we/"things" are.  The brain is, mind might be, consciousness (the way I see it) isn't.

 

(2) That seems like a bizarre conclusion to me.  If it could, which I doubt, I don't see that it could be considered automatic.  Random, maybe (personally I don't really buy the idea of randomness).  Or, perfectly reasonably, by Will.  

[the village idiot]

3 minutes ago, onetruth said:

(1) Probably not, that would defy the causality that all temporal things seem to depend on.  That does assume, however, that cause-and-effect is universal (or true at all).  I don't think we can know that.  In physics for instance, quanta and the big-bang don't function causally, but nor are they temporal in the way we/"things" are.  The brain is, mind might be, consciousness (the way I see it) isn't.

 

(2) That seems like a bizarre conclusion to me.  If it could, which I doubt, I don't see that it could be considered automatic.  Random, maybe (personally I don't really buy the idea of randomness).  Or, perfectly reasonably, by Will.  

Yes, it was clumsy wording on my behalf. Perhaps what I should have said was 'this out of the ether input' would be just as much out of our concious control as anything else.

 

True, quanta don't function causally, but this adds no weight to the free will argument. (I appreciate you are not particularly arguing the case for free will).If anything, it slots neatly into the no free will camp as just another uncontrolled set of occurences that directly influence brain outputs.

[Vespasian]

If free will is predicated on cause and effect..and if the beginning of the universe had no cause then how would that fit into the debate about free will?..

 

[the village idiot]

2 minutes ago, Vespasian said:

If free will is predicated on cause and effect..and if the beginning of the universe had no cause then how would that fit into the debate about free will?..

 

That's not really a problem as far as free will is concerned Vesp. You just start 'counting' the causes from the big bang.

[Vespasian]

6 minutes ago, the village idiot said:

That's not really a problem as far as free will is concerned Vesp. You just start 'counting' the causes from the big bang.

but it begs the question, if the big bang had no cause, then not everything is the result of cause and effect...

[the village idiot]

2 minutes ago, Vespasian said:

but it begs the question, if the big bang had no cause, then not everything is the result of cause and effect...

True, but even if your decisions are being influenced by quantum mechanics, how does this give you free will?

[onetruth]

2 minutes ago, Vespasian said:

but it begs the question, if the big bang had no cause, then not everything is the result of cause and effect...

That is certainly a huge problem.  I think the best solution you could come up with is that anything limited by time is the result of cause and effect, which doesn't necessarily include (or exclude) will.

[onetruth]

4 minutes ago, the village idiot said:

True, but even if your decisions are being influenced by quantum mechanics, how does this give you free will?

It doesn't, but it allows for things to be spontaneous and not dependant on their environment.  It suggests there may be an opportunity for free will in some sense outside of that-which-is-determined, even though there is no direct connection.

Edited January 6, 2018 by onetruth

[Vespasian]

Looks like I might of thrown a spanner in the works...

 

Looks to me if you really want to use cause and effect you have to prove the universe came into existence because of a cause..

[the village idiot]

4 minutes ago, onetruth said:

It doesn't, but it allows for things to be spontaneous and not dependant on their environment.  I suggests there may be an opportunity for free will in some sense outside of that-which-is-determined, even though there is no direct connection.

Hmmm, not much I can do with that!