Chris at eden

4 hours ago, dumper said:

Not sure is not metasequoia would like to see more pictures of the branches. a lot of opposing new growth if you look 

Bloody hell, you have good eye sight.  Some of the bottom pics are opposite and if you zoom right in there a tiny leaf scars opposite the buds.  Can't say that is something i have ever looked for, as you say they look different in terms of shape if you see the whole tree.  I'm sticking with Taxodium but you got me questioning myself now.  More pics as suggested.  

Any cypress knees at the base? 
 

Buds are alternate which rules out dawn redwood.  Swamp cypress maybe. 

Blue green urban. 👍

4 minutes ago, Retired Climber said:

I realise it seems that I'm being deliberately argumentative; that's not my intention. I hear these kind of things every day though " so and so's day rate is a grand, so he must be on 240 grand a year". In my experience, many professionals only end up actually charging themselves out at their hourly rate for a few hours per day. I myself spent a lot of time putting systems in place to make sure someone is paying me for every hour I'm working. Most people don't manage it though. Anyway, it's been interesting to hear the opinion of someone who's ' in the trenches'. 

No probs, your tone didn't come across as argumentative.        

4 minutes ago, Retired Climber said:

 

No, there's no money in journalism and I have neither the patience nor focus to write a novel. I am writing a book (based mainly on the psychology of how people make decisions and how we can influence those decisions), but at the moment my bread and butter work involves advising businesses along similar lines. I basically tell people how to persuade other people to do things. 

That sounds pretty cool.  I have read a couple of Malcolm Gladwell's books, he touches on some of that stuff in one of his books.  Really interesting stuff.  Good luck with it. 

3 hours ago, Retired Climber said:

Do you actually know any consultants who regularly earn 100 grand a year, or are most scraping a living for 30 or 40 grand a year as I suggested? 

Day rates for consultants is between £200 and £800 depending on qualifications and experience.  The real top ones can make £180 an hour - I know a bloke who charges this and is always busy.  Based on this i would say there are plenty that do earn top money, certainly more than the average or even top paid lorry driver.  Plus, as Jules said, its a nice job.  But yes the 30-40 is probably quite a few of them as not everyone is driven by the money.  I'm not, i spend part of my time working for an LPA as a TO and i turn away consultancy work every week.  I could earn more if i left the LPA but i like they variation.                                                         

3 hours ago, Retired Climber said:

I left the industry entirely. I'm now a writer. 

 Sound interesting, big change.  Novels or journalism?    

18 hours ago, 5thelement said:

There are lot more than you think!

So I have heard. When I did my tickets in the 90s there was 35 of us on the course, only one didn’t get all the tickets. But, it was part of a full time course with 2 days a week doing just the practical stuff. Then a week at Heligan Gardens doing tree work for the study tour.  That is a good pass rate but I doubt it is that high for the five day courses you can do. There is nowt like experience. 

1 hour ago, daltontrees said:

Wow, what does that say about a couple of folk I know who failed? Rhetorical question. One was a maniac, the other an imbecile.

I used to know a lad who failed his CS 39 as he cut through the branch he was standing on while the instructor was shouting telling him not to. He was both a maniac and an imbecile. 
 

ironically, the council he worked for put him through his class 1 HGV. He put his notice in the day he passed and he now drives lorries.  Sounds like I am making that up but it’s a true story.  He also got demoted to shrub bashing because he left a chainsaw running unattended and it kind of bounced / rattled across a school playground while the kids were out.  This was shortly after he rolled a stump grinder and then rolled it in the opposite direction trying to stand it up with the truck using his climbing rope as a tow rope.  There are some folk who can fail the CS units. 
 

5 minutes ago, Wonky said:

Can you link to the document that superseded the older doc 

cheers

See below:

Tree Preservation Orders and trees in conservation areas - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Cheers 

Chris  

48 minutes ago, Retired Climber said:

You've said what I wrote was nonsense, then gone on to prove my point. You could earn any of the salaries you mentioned driving a lorry or choosing other similarly unskilled jobs. You could earn the lower ones driving a bus. 

 

The expert witness rates are ok, but only if you have that work to do every day. Realistically, wouldn't they just expect to earn that money on a few days per month, with the rest of the month bringing in a more average kind of rate? 

I didn't say what you said was nonsense to be fair.  I meant college lecturers told me that you couldn't make money in Arb which is nonsense in my opinion.  I can see how you would have taken it that way but it wasn't intended to come across as 'stop talking nonsense'.  It was more, don't let folk tell you that.  You cant convey tone in writing so stuff can come across harsh.  What the lecturers really meant was that they had taken a path that doesn't pay well which is fine, there are benefits from working in a nice college environment.  Its not all about money.

I'm pretty lucky in that i love doing the consultancy work and as long as you are prepared to work hard it can pay well.  If you churn out generic reports that get constant objections from the LPA TO then you will never build up a good enough client base to make a good living.  If you put the effort in then folk come back to you.  You can still make £500 a day doing 5837 work.  you can make similar money doing risk surveys and more doing mortgage reports.  Work that out over 5 days and 42 weeks a year allowing for 6 weeks holiday, bank holidays and a couple of weeks if you are ill and you are over £100k.  Your costs will be below £20k and will be offset by the higher paid works you do such as mortgage and CPR reports. 

You cant make that driving a lorry or a bus realistically.   You can possibly make £50k driving a continental lorry if you are prepared to sleep in the cab a few nights a week but most are less than that.  My point was made to the other chap as he was looking for advice.  It was that you can make money in Arb if you really push yourself, work hard / smart, and do the right training.  Don't get me wrong, you will spend years earning that same money that you did as a climber and wonder if you have done the right thing but it will pay off in the end if you make the right decisions.  

Re. The expert witness work.  I have only just started doing it and i don't advertise but i am told by those that do it that it is pretty busy.  Makes sense i suppose as people claim for everything these days.  One chap told me that his work is 50/50 BS5837 and CPR reports and he doesn't do anything else as that fills his week.  Its something that you have to build a client base for i suppose but it isn't something i push at the moment as my training is on hold due to Covid.     

I noticed you are a retired climber, what do you do now?  Surveying?  

Cheers 

Chris                    

On 20/04/2021 at 08:06, Retired Climber said:

You don't go into the more 'academic / theory' side of the work for th money. How much do you think an LA tree officer earns? 

That is what lecturers used to tell me.  Its nonsense though.  LA TO jobs are usually £25 - £35k - as good as most climbing jobs and you can do it when you are 60.  But you see the occasional one at £45k, usually for a county council.  TLR had one advertised a few months ago at £54k, plus free rail travel within London, and 75% discount elsewhere including the Eurostar.  That isn't bad if you ask me but the money is in the private sector.  Expert witnesses earn more.  A lot more, think £800 - £1,200 a day depending on how good you are.  You can earn really good money doing mortgage reports as well if you can stand the monotony.  

On 19/04/2021 at 23:25, Olis said:

Hi Chris.

 

Looking back over my work history I've always changed the focus of my career after 5 to 7 years and I suspect I'll continue to want a new challenge after about that time. I'm keen to get into tree surgery in a way that makes it easy for me go on to get the qualifications to be an inspector or a tree officer, rather than getting qualifications as cheaply as possible and then working on commercial stuff where quality isn't the focus

That is basically what i did.  I did a 1 year course full time at a college in Somerset in 1997.  It covered the climbing, chainsaws and felling on Monday and Tuesday.  Then Wednesday, Thursday and Friday it was the theory.  I was 23 at the time.  I then worked on the tools until i was 30 before i got a job as a junior TO.  If you are a similar age and want to do a bit of the practical side then i would recommend this approach. 

You can go straight to the advisory side though.  Someone else said look at the Level 2, 4 and 6 qualifications through tree life.  This is good advice.  I had already covered level 2 with my full time course above but i did level 4 with tree life back in 2005, well the old Tech Cert version.  That will get you an interview for a junior TO job or surveyor, i got a junior TO job with it.  I then did L6 in 2012, got a better TO job, I actually got the job in 2010 on the understanding i upped my qualifications to at least L5.  I finished L6 in 2014 and started doing consultancy, the next step up.  I am now doing expert witness training which is a step up again.  Point is, if you go straight to advisory, you don't have to stand still.  There is a lot of space to grow into.  There are different areas also - risk, subsidence, planning, etc.  

cheers 

chris   

10 minutes ago, Chris at eden said:

He can make a TPO any time.  They are made in accordance with the 2012 regs, that is the legislation you mention. Clearly the TO isn’t confident in what he is doing otherwise you could be in trouble. I would plant the trees and consider yourself lucky. If he gets ambitious this could still be a problem. 
 

The blue book is not relevant. It was withdrawn in 2012 as it does not reflect the new regs. They never produced a new blue book, instead they produced the online guidance. 
 

This states that LPAs have 3 options when receiving a 211 notice. 
 

1. Write to you saying no objection to the works. 
2. Ignore the notice and you can work after 6 weeks. 
3. Serve a TPO. 
 

The guidance states that when making a TPO, it should preferably be within the six weeks.  But, it doesn’t say it has to be, that it doesn’t is implied by the word preferably.  You could probably claim mitigating circumstances but if it was served registered post (as it should be) I don’t think it would get you far.   
 

ultimately, the trees had been picked up by a different piece of legislation that you hadn’t applied for work under.  I don’t see how the 211 notice is relevant. Can’t say I have heard of this simulation before though so keep us posted. 
 

cheers 

 

Chris. 
 

P.s.  just noticed you said replacements had been planted. Lucky escape. 
 

I hadn’t looked at the blue book in years so just dug it out. The bottom of page 60 actually states that you can make a TPO after the 6 weeks!  
 

23 hours ago, Watertower62 said:

Meant to update this before. The LPA Tree Officer & his assistant visited the site mid December 2020 - still couldn’t show us any legislation that shows they can place a TPO well after the 6 week period of the Section 211 ..... like anyone on this forum.

TO said he’d like 2 Holm Oaks replaced, we said no, take us to court.

Our original application was to replace with Rowan Trees - he didn’t want those.

TO then suggested replacing with a Holly Tree & a Magnolia Grandiflora - a result for all!

Three months later we were sent an email asking us to buy and plant the trees in the middle of March and send photos to confirm.

Holly & Magnolia are planted & 54 sacks of logs chopped by ourselves during lockdown 🙌🏼

He can make a TPO any time.  They are made in accordance with the 2012 regs, that is the legislation you mention. Clearly the TO isn’t confident in what he is doing otherwise you could be in trouble. I would plant the trees and consider yourself lucky. If he gets ambitious this could still be a problem. 
 

The blue book is not relevant. It was withdrawn in 2012 as it does not reflect the new regs. They never produced a new blue book, instead they produced the online guidance. 
 

This states that LPAs have 3 options when receiving a 211 notice. 
 

1. Write to you saying no objection to the works. 
2. Ignore the notice and you can work after 6 weeks. 
3. Serve a TPO. 
 

The guidance states that when making a TPO, it should preferably be within the six weeks.  But, it doesn’t say it has to be, that it doesn’t is implied by the word preferably.  You could probably claim mitigating circumstances but if it was served registered post (as it should be) I don’t think it would get you far.   
 

ultimately, the trees had been picked up by a different piece of legislation that you hadn’t applied for work under.  I don’t see how the 211 notice is relevant. Can’t say I have heard of this simulation before though so keep us posted. 
 

cheers 

Chris. 
 

2 hours ago, Wonky said:

I had a read of the blue book chapter 9, 

 

I can’t believe the cheating TO tried to pull the wool over your eyes.

 

I guess  he will remember his slack approach in future 👍

You do realise the blue book was withdrawn in 2012!  It no longer has any legal standing. 
 

23 minutes ago, Olis said:

Plus a tree surgery route into the field doesn't pay particularly well. I know its probably not the most sensible thing to be doing but I really want to spend a bit of time doing a job where at the end of the day you've got something to show for your efforts 

Not sure what you are saying. Do you want to work as a tree surgeon or go straight into a technical role?  

It’s probably worth getting a report to check if there is a risk of direct damage or subsidence.  Your mortgage company may insist on it.  Its impossible to say from some pics on a website.   Where is the property? 

Actually, it looks a bit like Piptoporus.  I should probably mention at this point that I can’t find my glasses. 😁

22 minutes ago, openspaceman said:

Fomes fomentarius?

 

both a saprophyte and a white rotter I think

Never seen Fomes on Cherry but you are correct re the white rot. Simultaneous rot to be exact.  
 

this one looks more like an old desiccated Laetiporus bracket to me. That would fit better with the cherry for me as well.  Brown rotter if so. 

 

3 hours ago, Dan Maynard said:

Similar method I guess but I usually use a rake handle, line up to my eye and the height of tree, and then pace out the distance between me and the tree.

Can't really imagine a phone app working that well unless you're up 200 feet and use an altimeter. Maybe though it can be measuring the angle up to the tip? If you type in distance that would give an estimate.

Unless you are an orangutan this wont work.  🙂   

The stick needs to be the same length as the distance from you shoulder to your knuckles for the trigonometry to works out. 

 I use the same method though for measuring heights.  But i use a disto to measure to the tree rather than pacing as a measure a lot of tree so need it to be quick.   

I think you have a bigger problem here than you realise and i am not being some kind of a tree hugger.  Just to clear up the timing.  If you damaged the tree before the TPO was made then there is no criminal act.  If the damage was done after then you will be lucky to get out of this without a criminal record.  Someone mention a £20k fine but this is incorrect, the max fine for willful destruction is now unlimited even on summary conviction (i.e. determined by a magistrate).  Then you have the potential to be hit with proceeds of crime, court costs, and replacement planting.  I also wouldn't be entirely comfortable with the only person that can prove that you did the damage before the order was made is the tree officer, the bloke who is going to try to prosecute you potentially.  If it was me, i would have taken a photo myself and emailed it to myself so it is date and time stamped.      

As to why the council can come onto your land and make a TPO.  They can do this as there is a piece of statutory legislation that has been in place since 1947 that allows it.  They have a right of access and if you try to prevent them it is a £1k fine. This is just a fact, the analogy you use about interfering with your neighbours land isn't relevant.  If you want to build a big extension on your house you will need planning consent.  Its the same legislation. 

But assuming the damage was done first.  

I don't see why the tree officer would have TPOd the tree just to let you fell it.  If it isn't dead, and there isn't an immediate risk then the works are not exempt so you will need to submit an app.  As the app is based on condition it will need a tree report and i dont see them accepting one from the tree surgeon you mentioned just saying fell.  If you send that in then they will just refuse it saying there is no consideration of the options.  You will then go to appeal via the planning inspectorate (PINS).  The LPA can take 8 weeks to determine the app.  You then have 28 days to appeal and get the appeal registered.  This takes you up to 3 months.  The PINS deadline is 27 weeks which will take you up to 9 months best case scenario.  The PINS are nowhere near meeting their deadlines, i have just had one back that took 11 months just for the appeal, 14 months in total.  Not good.  Then, you may not win.  If the TO says you could look at other options such as bridge grafting then the inspector may agree. 

The TO will most likely have a degree in Arboriculture and the PINS inspector will rely on this in part as they wont be a tree expert.  They will look at the expert evidence supplied by the TO and you.  As such you would be better getting your report from a consultant.  Problem you will have is that the consultant should really look at all the options which will include trying to save the tree.  The TO could then say why not go for this option.  

As i said i am not trying to be a tree hugger here, I'm just giving you the facts.  As a consultant i wouldn't take this on either.  I am not going to get into the whole debate as to whether what you have done is wrong or not.  But, tree consultants have to work with tree officers all the time and so its good to have a good working relationship with them.  If they are going to be picky with all of your future reports that you submit for planning because of a one off £500 report, its not worth the hassle. 

The fact that the neighbours don't like the tree is not even remotely relevant.  TPOs are always made when trees are under threat and so against the wishes of the owner and neighbouring properties.  Again just a fact worth sharing.  I have heard loads of people say they put the TPO on the tree without my permission.  That is how it works.

Replacement planting.  If the tree had died and become dangerous they would probably accept a standard as a replacement.  £400-ish.  They will almost certainly push for something bigger in this instance.  Think thousands, not hundreds.  

As i said, not a simple or quick as you may think.  The TO can easily delay the felling of the tree for well over a year.  They dont even need to confirm it for 6 months and you cant register an appeal until the TPO has been confirmed.  You are now up to 20 months.  Not saying this will happen but there is no reason why it couldn't.  This gives plenty of time to see how the tree responds.    

You need to get some proper advice on this realistically.  You cant get a proper assessment by posting a pic on here.  If it falls and injures someone in the meantime you will be liable.  Irrespective of the TPO.  The only way you can shift any liability toward the council is with an application supported by an expert report.  

Note.  i have not visited the site or inspected the tree and so the above comments are for information only.  They must not be considered as professional advice under any circumstances.  

42 minutes ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

That’s an interesting point Chris. 
 

Are you saying local knowledge should be separated out of a set of observations / recommendations?

 

Whats the difference between an assumed fact and a discussion with a tree owner which seeks to establish local influences which may have effected observable implications?

 

Ive always sought to try and understand what may have happened in the vicinity of a tree through interrogation of any source of local knowledge that might be available. 
 

I might see that a new drive is ‘probably’ X years old, but the landowner can tell me it’s Y. 
 

Is that what you’d define as an assumed fact - and sideline it?

 

That seems absurd to me. 

You don’t side line assumed facts but you do separate them from facts.  Facts are something you observe yourself.  Assumed fact are something others tell you. So, you can state the condition of the tree as a fact.  But if someone tells you they have seen it declining for years, that is an assumed fact. If they tell you it fell on Tuesday night, that is assumed.  If you see it fall then that is a fact.  
 

i was doing the expert witness training with Bond Solon before COVID kicked in and it’s from that. They say all reports have the potential to end up in court so make them court compliant.  If you make a statement as if it’s something you know for sure and it ends up being something the neighbour told you, the barrister will love it.  They will hammer you for misrepresenting yourself and question your competence at which point it’s game over. 
 

facts, assumed facts, and opinions are all different things. 
 

41 minutes ago, Mick Dempsey said:

I feel people are ignoring @Cobbs tree&estate service posts.

He saw the damage being done to the tree in the house build, sees the tree regularly and has noticed the decline in leaf cover and dead wood in it.

 

 

Not ignoring him Mick.  But in report writing terms it’s called an assumed fact.  It’s isn’t something others should comment on with complete authority.  It should be separated out. He may well be right though. But, I don’t think you can make a proper diagnosis by driving past it in a van. Particularly as the house was built 16 years ago, and the drive at least 10. Again, assumed facts. 
 

i would only advise based on a full inspection. My original advice to the OP was to get a report.  It still is and for all of the trees, not just that one.   I would be looking for a financial contribution from the seller for any required works before exchanging contracts. 
 

4 minutes ago, Steve Bullman said:

 

 

ever seen big trees planted at the likes of a Tesco new build that have died a few years later?

Google - Asda store in Cannock and have a look at the London Planes on the car park.  They installed them into linear planting bays all joined up so they have good rooting environment.  They are good sized trees now and about 20 years old. This isn’t the norm though. 
 

I do planning consultations regularly and they always want to put trees into the smallest pits possible. That is the main problem with supermarket planting schemes. Not the tree sizes. That said, I always recommend 10-12s for planting as they establish quicker and catch up over time. 
 

On 01/02/2021 at 19:11, Ethan Gannon said:

Hi, I’m looking for advice on who to do my online “level 4 diploma” in arboriculture with.
To do it with Tree Life, and to pay for the one year extension, costs approx £4400.

To do it with the The Training Tree cost £3120.

What are the differences between the two? Any help greatly appreciated.

 

 

Dave Dowson from tree life wrote the syllabus.  He knows more about the course than literally anyone else. I did level 6 with them and can’t recommend them highly enough.