arboriculturist

19 minutes ago, Woodworks said:

And remind us how much do they charge for this service? 

Woodsure

122.40 Registration Fee

385.20 Annual audit

232.80 Point of sale checks (up to 2000m3 annual fee)

Non-compliance fee should a supplier be reported or found to be not complying, likely to be circa. 130 - 230.

Fixed penalty for non-compliance 300.

47 minutes ago, difflock said:

An Axe!

How much training, RA statements  and ambulances-on-standby  are needed to facilitate that endevour!

Perhaps fortunately, they do actually ask you to do the splitting ! 

10 hours ago, Paddy1000111 said:

Are they basing this measurement on core humidity or external humidity? If you have a wave form humidity tester that can test upto 40mm deep then that's true humidity but what if they get put outside for a bit and the outer few mil is wet... If you use a pin type tester then its variable. I don't see how they're going to enforce it... 

When Woodsure test your logs they split up to 5 in half with an axe and test the centre of each log to give an average MC.

54 minutes ago, Westwood said:

2000 bags plus accessories (about 3000 bags kindling 2000 firelighters etc) requires delivering and at this time of year it requires 12 hour days and occupies 1.5 drivers and 0.5 people scheduling and order processing.  For weeks we have been delivering 20 bags a day from one truck (next capital expenditure is a second truck) but even if we had a second truck we would still need 1.5 people plus a half time scheduler.

 

We have to bag up from the drying crates ( nearly 1000 cube in crates , 500+ 2m cube crates at any one time) - we need to get better at this but just moving crates around and tipping for a couple of hours at 4 bags per fill takes people - in between loading the truck and bagging up kiln dried and netting up nets and filling barrow bags.  This is not all about processing and how big your machine is.  just for the record we can do 8-10 cube an hour of 25cm logs with no stoppages on high spec sorted timber.  That does not equate to 80 cube a day because timber is not perfect blockages have to be sorted a 6 meter log deck needs to be loaded, sawdust, waste and filled crates have to be removed and replaced..  In the summer we drop back to 2.5 people - but two people have to manage the machine the other is doing summer deliveries.

 

You are right we have too much low grade and out of spec timber which is what we sub-contract out.  Our small machine (20ton Trackmet) is fine on ringed up arb waste but very slow on small diameter timber.  There is no doubt that small spec timber can be dealt with more effectively by 2 person teams not distracted by customers and delivery schedules.

 

i have no doubt we are not perfect - we are very clear about our target market.  Our customers want a choice of season type and wood species and are prepared to pay a premium if necessary.  We deliver from a 4 meter crane on the back corner of the truck and drop bags wherever they want them within reason including into garages and over hedges - we don't loose tip..  We use low cost delivery builders bags and leave them with the customer.

 

We are probably running at a bit higher than 2000 cube a year at the moment, last year was 1300 cube.  We do see increased business next year forcing some capital expenditure but there are some big decisions around processing.  There are a large number of people in the industry who nationally distribute but don't cut a log and indeed probably don't run a truck.

 

We have 500 tons of cord timber on site at any one time of various specs and ages - the space for that means we have to transport it around the site.  I think if you have to load and unload the forwarder onto the log deck it does not matter if you have to transport it a few hundred yards.

 

We almost certainly cannot get much bigger without kilns or without increasing bought in volumes - 1400-2000 cube air drying is a nightmare whereas buying in or kiln drying can be more "just in time".

 

How have others found it?

 

 

 

 

" 1400-2000 cube air drying is a nightmare whereas buying in or kiln drying can be more "just in time".

How have others found it? "

At the end of the day, I think you just have to ask yourself - Is this business giving me the lifestyle I would like.

It sounds to me as though there is significant pressure and stress running that setup and unless you have run a firewood business on the scale you have it's difficult for others to appreciate what you are going through on a daily basis.

Then you have the new legislation coming online, which will be in May for you.

There are a few things I would never do for what its worth, as these are areas that significant labour costs are incurred at every step:

Make and bag kindling

Deliver firewood in bulk bags

Bag any size of bag of whatever product

Deliver anything less than 1m3 of firewood to a customer

I expect you already take a lot of trouble in grading timber as it is delivered, so when it hits the processors the last thing you ever, ever have to do is think about a chainsaw.

Our timber only ever gets moved by machine 3 times from roundwood delivery to ending up on the delivery vehicle.

I don't think any of us will ever crack the problem of getting the spec. roundwood delivered that we all require.

It sounds like you have worked long and hard on your business and perhaps you enjoy the lifestyle it provides.

1 minute ago, Justme said:

 

You cant average 25m3 per day?

On the job I did for them we peaked at 30m3 on one day and averaged 25m3 per day. We did two 3 day sessions. 

On substandard heavily manual input timber.

Bought in roundwood can look nothing like what you are processing there and there is of course more to production than just timber passing through a processor, which has been mulled over numerous times on the Forum. 

If you step out your truck, everything is serviced, fueled up, sharp, your processor starts up, you have spare fuel on site and everything is in place ready to go with the right timber and no breakdowns, no nails/stone etc. in the timber, of course you can process 25 - 30 in a given 8 hour day.

Any business that processes firewood, forgetting about delivery, for every 100 hours they step out side their front door, most would be astounded what percentage of those 100 hours they are not actually processing m3 of timber, which is why knowone can maintain 25m3 in an 8 hour day unless everything they have is gunbarrel straight large diameter, which would then give them time within those 8 hours to attend to the 101 other tasks required to be carried out relating to production.

Others will disagree, which I why I rest my case now or this will become boring.

1 hour ago, Justme said:

 

I would agree if its just the production of the raw split / cut logs you are quantifying on.

 

However with all the pre & post split / cut & delivery work as well thats needed its more realistic.

 

I think I know this company & have done work for them.

 

They have a good set up for the high quality feed stock (firewood factory, if I remember right) which produces volume quickly but needs good graded feed stock.

 

However what I saw of the lower end set up it is very slow & this is where they are loosing what the are gaining from the faster processing.

 

To just produce 1400m3 from average feed stock is less than 60 working days production for two people on a small wp30. With a bigger static set up with deck etc you could reduce that further.

 

They also suffer from having to move the wood stacks a distance to the machines which eats up time.

I am quantifying on the whole practical aspects of their business.

Those 2 factors of moving timber and the quality of roundwood delivered looks like what is contributing to their large labour input. 

We have 2 of the most efficient processors going and even with those with timber as it is, we could not achieve anywhere near 1400m3 in 60 days. That is with no roundwood movement and not ever having to touch the timber. Huge amounts of labour input required in the physical tasks required in production and managing the production / storage infrastructure

This is why margins are very slim as GDH has illustrated well.

Anyone who leads you to believe otherwise is deluding themselves.

16 hours ago, Westwood said:

We do about 2000 loose cubic meters per year. about 30% Kiln Dried from eastern Europe.  

 

We have been running retail about 5 years after a couple of years supplying rings to wholesale.

 

We own 100 acres of mixed woodland but most processing that we do comes from adjacent estates in 3 meter lengths processor ready and increasingly tight spec for our Fuelwood firewood factory.

 

Our prices per cube range from £80 to £125.  We sell a range of accessories kindling, firelighters coal etc.

 

Our average order value is about £120 per cubic meter.

 

From our observation the majority of firewood retailers in the small to medium range either do it as a sideline to a day job or as a sideline to an existing business such as Tree Surgery or Farming.  Sideliners have minimal overheads and capital expenditure, existing businesses have shared overheads such as barns and equipment. 

 

As a stand alone business as we are you can either be very small with minimum investment or invest heavily to grow the business and achieve economies of scale which is the path we have chosen.  We have up to 3 people full time and occasional helpers.

 

We know exactly the margins on bought in product.  Capital and operating costs on sales marketing and distribution again are well known and profitability depends on volume.  What is much more difficult to get a handle on is processing costs for bought in timber - we have two processors one for volume and one for small stuff and arb waste.  It is really clear small stuff and arb waste has much higher cost.  We now avoid this or sub-contract it out to others as we do felling and forwarding in our own woodland.

 

Most of our business is from an developed base of about 600 customers within 20 miles of our site - about 70% comes from our website.  We contact the base about 4 times a year for promotional purposes.

 

Agree with GDH about the hidden nature of expenditure - this is very true in processing which drives the majority of capital requirements.  We do not operate kilns so we do not get the benefit of RHI - we operate forced air drying to supplement natural seasoning.  

 

just a few thoughts to add to the debate - be very interested in what others think - do you get out of processing altogether or are you supported by RHI.  How do you get profitability up on distribution - smaller area, fewer drops, larger trucks?

 

" As a stand alone business as we are you can either be very small with minimum investment or invest heavily to grow the business and achieve economies of scale which is the path we have chosen.  We have up to 3 people full time and occasional helpers. "

Given that you buy  30% of timber already processed, employing up to 3 people full time and occasional helpers is a lot of labour to produce 1400m3 annually and retail 600m3 of bought in.

Sounds like you are getting a lot of low grade small timber that takes an age to process.

28 minutes ago, Paddy1000111 said:

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree 😂 

 

A carbon positive process by all accounts is a process that takes stored co2 and releases it as a gas into the environment. If you cut down a 200 year old tree and release the co2 as a gas into the environment it's not a carbon neutral process. A tree, if left to decay naturally would only release a fraction of its solid co2 as a gas and the dead tree would also provide nutrients to another tree which would replace it and absorb the co2 the dead tree releases. 

 

Co2 is only an issue as a gas in the atmosphere and that's the only type of co2 we monitor. When it's stored in trees for any amount of time it's not an issue. You can't cut down a tree and burn it and call it carbon neutral, it's not what that term means! 😂

 

By cutting down a tree (a carbon sink) you release carbon into the atmosphere to get an end product (heat) if you don't replace that tree with another one you are carbon positive

The 'Key' point to remember is that felling a 100 year old Oak and planting another Oak does not  = 'Carbon Neutral'.

After 20 years the replacement Oak tree probably will still only have 10-15 % of the foliage area of the 100 year old Oak felled.

I am uncertain of the ratio of how many trees are required to be planted to =  'Carbon Neutral', when a felled tree is burnt for fuel, but I would be very interested to know and it should be common knowledge IMO.

We need to have the knowledge to at least attempt to do what we can to save the planet.

Quality Mill, quality hammer, quality slabs and a quality operative !

Nothing beats having the correct tools for the job.

I have  always advocated a small increase each year, if only to keep up with a 'normal' inflation.

That said any published national inflation rate has nothing whatsoever to do with our industry. Look how timber and diesel prices can fluctuate.

Kept prices the same this year - god knows why as decent processor grade timber seems to harder to guarantee and efficiency can suffer taking literally 10 times as long to process as correct spec. roundwood.

We can all pretty much guarantee, Firewood businesses will go the same way as Farming - far far fewer, larger setups.

3 hours ago, Stere said:

Would be interesting to know a guess at the profit margin each cube sold.

The net margin after tax will barely reach double figures.

Many people don't factor in all their time spent on the business and that is often the financial element that when not included makes people think they are in a business with good margins.

A lot are in the business because they like the lifestyle it gives them at 'some' times of the year.

22 minutes ago, Woodworks said:

Just had a chat with Woodsure and they were very clear that we dont have to enrol and there are no costs if supplying loads in excess of 2 cube. DEFRA  will be drawing up a letter we need to supply to the customer on how they should dry there logs (delivered at 21%-22%)

 

Thats us sorted thankfully 

 

Might make up a letter to deliver to all customers to alert them of the future changes. probably 2/3 of our logs are sold in 2 cube loads already and it might give others a chance to build some extra storage space

Your wood is the best around in your locality already Beau, without the need for you to jump through any hoops.

You are very, very fortunate however that 2/3 of your customers will take 2m3, but you realise that of course.

Onwards and upwards.

49 minutes ago, petercb said:

For small suppliers under 600 metre cube per year does not apply until May 2022.

 

Cost are about £120 to join then min of about £385 per year plus testing costs from a quick read on Woodsure and Government websites.

 

2 meter cube plus can be supplied provided info on seasoning wood is supplied.

 

£300 fixed penalty if you are caught not complying with regulations.

 

The Air Quality (Domestic Solid Fuels Standards) (England) Regulations 2020

WWW.LEGISLATION.GOV.UK

---

These Regulations are made under section 87 of the Environment Act 1995 (c. 25). They make provision...

 

Woodsure appointed by Defra to run Ready to Burn certification scheme | Woodsure

WOODSURE.CO.UK

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Woodsure, the non-profit organisation striving to raise the quality of woodfuel in the industry, has been appointed by...

 

Just to save people some time, I have expanded on the key points petercb listed:

Cost are about £120 to join then min of about £385 per year plus testing costs from a quick read on Woodsure and Government websites. :

It is an application process, where you need to satisfy a list of criteria before Woodsure will consider you for application to start the Certification process.

2 meter cube plus can be supplied provided info on seasoning wood is supplied. :

SCHEDULE 2

Form of words in respect of wood sold in volumes of two cubic metres or more

If we offer firewood in quantities of 2m3 we will be required by law to present the customer with a document that includes the following wording:

This wood is not suitable for burning until it has been dried. You should not burn wood until it has a moisture content of 20% or less.

Wet wood contains moisture which creates smoke and harmful particulates when burnt. As well as being harmful to your health and the environment, this can damage your stove and chimney and is an inefficient way to heat your home. Dry it in a sunny, well-aired space for at least two years, keeping rain off in the winter.

Radial cracks and bark that comes off easily suggests wood that is ready for burning. Test the wood when you think it is ready for burning, ideally with a moisture meter. First calibrate the meter and then measure a freshly split surface to get the best reading.

£300 fixed penalty if you are caught not complying with regulations. :

The Planning Authority under the Regulations have the right to visit your premises if they suspect an offence has been committed, so we need to make sure we have ticked all the appropriate Planning Regulations for our Firewood operation.

Powers of enforcement

17.—(1) An officer of a relevant local authority may, for the purposes of enforcing these Regulations—

(a)enter a supplier’s premises at any reasonable time;

(b)inspect a supplier’s goods;

(c)make test purchases of a supplier’s goods;

(d)require a supplier to produce documents or to provide information;

(e)question a supplier or officers or employees of a supplier.

I hope the above is helpfull to those who have not already read all the info available online.

I don't think there is any scaremongering going on.

By now most people will have visited their website, after all this has been on the cards for at least 4 years now and all the legislation has been  passed and can be accessed with a few clicks of a mouse - we all know how to do it.

I like to be well informed, so I have been following this for years.

Like I say, anyone who has any further questions beyond what is online can give them a ring, that's what I did originally.

Just now, Woodworks said:

Any links to all this info? 

Not that I know of - I am informed as I am on their system.

Always best to give them a call for an update on the current situation, however a lot are working from home now.

2 hours ago, swinny said:

How do they plan to police this? 

 

Is it still the case of supply 2 cube and say it still needs seasoning?

I think this time it will be like CV19 - there will be no escaping, you will be found.

All the Agencies will be working in collaboration LPA, VOSA , EA, DEFFRA, Police  etc. etc. etc. you name it - they have got this covered.

Is it still the case of supply 2 cube and say it still needs seasoning? : - Sorry, this time from what I understand, that won't cut it.

Not forgetting that the legislation, now enshrined in law and on the 'Statute Books' gives the power to issue fixed penalty notices for offences without the need for a conviction, plus fines escalate for repeat offenders.

Unless you are prepared to tow the line it looks like game over. Not a great start unfortunately to 2021 for some.

I am sure however , that new doors will open for many as there are far easier ways to earn a living.

43 minutes ago, mixedangased said:

Can I still supply logs without being Woodsure approved this year or not ?anyone know ?as from what I’ve read I can’t make sense of it !also if I buy from a Woodsure reg company to sell on do I still need to be registered ???as the wood is Woodsure ? 

Your sized operation you have until May 2021.

There is a lot more to becoming a 'Certified' supplier than just ensuring the timber you sell is below 20%MC.

Woodsure will answer any queries you may have.

They have a robust system in place to ensure no loopholes exist in case people feel like flouting the law!

Trying to keep things positive and be helpfull also, is not making it easy to reply.

2 main points come to the forefront:

You need to consider the Planning aspect of running a Firewood business from any premises.

In addition, wether you can guarantee that your Dry Firewood you eventually offer for sale will meet the sub. 20% MC Regulations that will effect all producers of all size scales in May 2021.

When the legislation kicks in,  those who are tasked with enforcing the new Regulations will amongst other things be carrying out roadside checks on vehicles carrying Firewood and be issuing 'fixed penalties' to those offenders who do not comply. A bit like VOSA roadside checks. Repeat offenders can expect escalating penalties. 

Rather depressing state of affairs for many I would suggest.

7 minutes ago, Big Beech said:

get on and use it and find out 😅

If only ! 

Yes, it will be interesting how the complete system performs.

I've got a Hero 8 black, so should get some great footage when the time comes, which will be when I get some time and the rain eventually stops for more than 1/2 a day.

Anyone on here bought the 'INTERSECT' and used it in earnest - if so how do you find it and what specifically do you need to watch out for.

(Sadly my Panther Mill and Intersect are still in the packaging )

12 minutes ago, Rough Hewn said:

You’d be surprised.
8” thick oak slab, 4 years to air dry or 6 months in a kiln.
And yes yiu charge a premium.

Christ - 6 months in a kiln !

I suppose only experience will guide you as to how air dried (MC) any given piece of timber has to be before it can be kiln dried.

You obviously have your own data recorded over the years and know the average temperature you will be drying at when you have finished fabricating yours.

I have what you need here but I have always been reluctant to use it, as could see a stack of valuable timber being ruined by drying at the wrong starting MC, the wrong temperature or the wrong amount of drying time.

There is just not any basic information available I trust  to follow.

1 hour ago, Rough Hewn said:

If the universe is kind enough...
(If I can sell enough wood)
I’m hoping to buy a small tractor in the future,
For moving thicker slabs.
There’s actually a market for 4,6,8” thick slabs.
But they are Extremely heavy!!!
Otherwise it’s 55mm until then.

Ahh - so what is the use for 4,6,8" slabs?

You and I may well be dead before those 8" slabs are air dried ! 😆

On 22/12/2020 at 13:36, woody paul said:

I run a Tobroco Giant all metal no plastic add ons covers. One big problem is servicing not much space around engine to work but getting to now how to get to things cut a couple of spanners to fit in. 

I would never base a capital expenditure on price, which is why a lot of Avants and Multione etc get sold - because a lot of people do.

There are only 2 machines that I would even consider - One is the Tobroco- Giant and the other is yellow also.

On 20/12/2020 at 21:41, Big J said:

I'm looking to try to bring it to the firewood market. It's dense, poker straight and if processed green, rapidly turned into saleable logs. The crazy thing is that there are some sticks that are too large for most processors. 

 

You up for a bit of eucalyptus #arboriculturist ?? 

Eucalyptus - it 100% depends on how fast it dries. Ash has a head start and Beech looses moisture quickly, then tails off. 

I have yet to find reliable data on MC loss over time for different species.

If you can furnish us with credible data, then yes I would go for it - the jury is still out on Eucalyptus N.  for Firewood.

I have burnt it many times though, however being super dense I am sceptical as to speed of drying. 🤒 

1 minute ago, Rough Hewn said:

It’ll double or triple the price of the slabs.
Also it means the 98% of woodworkers who don’t want to wait years, can buy their kiln dried timber from me.
I’d prefer to have a kiln with mains supply.

Jesus Christ !!!  Christmas has come early - 2 - 3 x air dried.

Is there a rule of thumb average how many years say Oak has to be kept stickered air drying before force drying.  e.g 1" slabs 9 months, 2" slabs 18 months, 3" 2 years, 4" 4 years? Thanks.

I would have electricity supply controlled by thermostat that takes over if the accumulated drops below a pre-determined temperature.