Fruit Trees

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Buy the appropriate root stock and graft onto it from cuttings from existing trees (assuming the existing trees are the heritage and quality you seek to enhance). Rootstock approx a pound each, cuttings - free!

[agg221]

Hi Felix,

 

1850 is an interesting time - there are three types of orchard around. One is the ongoing 'grand estate' type orchard, which is not about commercial qualities so much as supplying the big house, with as diverse a range of produce as possible, spanning the whole year. It's also around the point where what would later be regarded as a 'smallholding' orchard starts to come in, for supply of the London market, but in parallel you have the ongoing home/farm orchard for local use. By 1880 the pattern is pretty well established, so if you're prepared to stretch the point a little and go for Victorian era varieties it should be possible.

 

Yours is what would be classed as 'big estate' isn't it? Are you looking to sell the produce, how big is the area you are looking to plant up and what level of amenity value do you want from it? This is about whether you go for a large range of varieties, which is good for spreading the season if you are supplying locally (farm shop/farmer's market) or go for a very narrow range (selling at commercial markets). This also determines what constitutes commercial qualities - if you want to sell direct to the public they can be educated on the finer points of flavour (I've proved this with cherries) whereas if it's through a middle-man there is more focus on size, uniformity and overall eye-appeal than on flavour.

 

If you give me some idea on the above I can give a few suggestions.

 

Alec

[codlasher]

Hi Felix,

 

1850 is an interesting time - there are three types of orchard around. One is the ongoing 'grand estate' type orchard, which is not about commercial qualities so much as supplying the big house, with as diverse a range of produce as possible, spanning the whole year. It's also around the point where what would later be regarded as a 'smallholding' orchard starts to come in, for supply of the London market, but in parallel you have the ongoing home/farm orchard for local use. By 1880 the pattern is pretty well established, so if you're prepared to stretch the point a little and go for Victorian era varieties it should be possible.

 

Yours is what would be classed as 'big estate' isn't it? Are you looking to sell the produce, how big is the area you are looking to plant up and what level of amenity value do you want from it? This is about whether you go for a large range of varieties, which is good for spreading the season if you are supplying locally (farm shop/farmer's market) or go for a very narrow range (selling at commercial markets). This also determines what constitutes commercial qualities - if you want to sell direct to the public they can be educated on the finer points of flavour (I've proved this with cherries) whereas if it's through a middle-man there is more focus on size, uniformity and overall eye-appeal than on flavour.

 

If you give me some idea on the above I can give a few suggestions.

 

Alec

 

V interesting info there. We've been looking in the same era as our place is 1859 (just after the railways arrived c 1854) so have collected a range of stock that was grown in EA at around that time plus other varieties too. Ours are all for home consumption and for good storing.

Near where I used to live/work the cherries in the village of Prestwood were planted for the dyeing trade, that lovely purple colour that your hands go when picking.

Plus of course the timber cherry grown in amongst the beech (the furniture timber). My parents have a kitchen made from locally grown cherry with beech work-tops. They go well together!

codlasher.

[agg221]

V interesting info there. We've been looking in the same era as our place is 1859 (just after the railways arrived c 1854) so have collected a range of stock that was grown in EA at around that time plus other varieties too. Ours are all for home consumption and for good storing.

Near where I used to live/work the cherries in the village of Prestwood were planted for the dyeing trade, that lovely purple colour that your hands go when picking.

codlasher.

 

There are quite a lot of cherry varieties local to Bucks - have you found Bernwode nurseries:

 

http://www.bernwodefruittrees.co.uk/

 

They even have one from Prestwood! Hadn't heard of using them for dying before though. I grew up in Kent and used to pick cherries in the summer, up big old trees on long ladders.

 

I grew up on what had formerly been a smallholding, planted 1919, and have replanted with the same idea of a regular source of supply, so a good range of timing and more long-storing fruits (apples, and some pears) to extend the season. We did once manage to eat apples from store through to June, then the first of the new season (Beauty of Bath) in July, so spanned the whole year.

 

I have planted up something similar where we now are - I propagated most of them where I could obtain scion wood. It's completely mixed, with apples, cherries (because I like them), a few pears and plums/gages. I've used mostly EA local varieties or ones which are known to do well here, with a few others for particular purposes. I've also put in a couple of bittersweet cider varieties as I tend to use the deformed fruit for cider and it improves the flavour a lot to put in some tannin - sugar content I can balance courtesy of Tate & Lyle!

 

Alec

Edited July 6, 2013 by agg221

[felixthelogchopper]

Hi Felix,

 

1850 is an interesting time - there are three types of orchard around. One is the ongoing 'grand estate' type orchard, which is not about commercial qualities so much as supplying the big house, with as diverse a range of produce as possible, spanning the whole year. It's also around the point where what would later be regarded as a 'smallholding' orchard starts to come in, for supply of the London market, but in parallel you have the ongoing home/farm orchard for local use. By 1880 the pattern is pretty well established, so if you're prepared to stretch the point a little and go for Victorian era varieties it should be possible.

 

Yours is what would be classed as 'big estate' isn't it? Are you looking to sell the produce, how big is the area you are looking to plant up and what level of amenity value do you want from it? This is about whether you go for a large range of varieties, which is good for spreading the season if you are supplying locally (farm shop/farmer's market) or go for a very narrow range (selling at commercial markets). This also determines what constitutes commercial qualities - if you want to sell direct to the public they can be educated on the finer points of flavour (I've proved this with cherries) whereas if it's through a middle-man there is more focus on size, uniformity and overall eye-appeal than on flavour.

 

If you give me some idea on the above I can give a few suggestions.

 

Alec

 

Hi Alec,

 

The estate in question is 110 acres near Ingatestone and has 2 separate orchards, one consisting of 2 lines of espaliers in a formal walled garden which are in good condition and the other one further from the house consisting of trees in a grid pattern. I have counted up over 30 empty pits or dead trees in this part and it is this I want to revive. Any fruit produced is used by the house (and estate team ) with any surplus taken into work by the owner where it is given to the staff at his company. I am fortunate in that, having managed to get the grounds in good order quite successfully, I am given a free hand with regards to projects. The family who own the estate enjoy the fruit and veg that we produce for them, as well as being very much into the heritage and ecological aspects of the estate so I would prefer to concentrate on fruit with good flavour rather than uniformity of appearance. I would like to go for a mix of culinary and dessert apples, ideally with a reasonable spread of harvesting season. We have been lucky this year as one of two vacant hives in the second orchard has been occupied by a swarm of bees so pollination should be no problem.

[codlasher]

Hi Alec,

 

The estate in question is 110 acres near Ingatestone and has 2 separate orchards, one consisting of 2 lines of espaliers in a formal walled garden which are in good condition and the other one further from the house consisting of trees in a grid pattern. I have counted up over 30 empty pits or dead trees in this part and it is this I want to revive. Any fruit produced is used by the house (and estate team ) with any surplus taken into work by the owner where it is given to the staff at his company. I am fortunate in that, having managed to get the grounds in good order quite successfully, I am given a free hand with regards to projects. The family who own the estate enjoy the fruit and veg that we produce for them, as well as being very much into the heritage and ecological aspects of the estate so I would prefer to concentrate on fruit with good flavour rather than uniformity of appearance. I would like to go for a mix of culinary and dessert apples, ideally with a reasonable spread of harvesting season. We have been lucky this year as one of two vacant hives in the second orchard has been occupied by a swarm of bees so pollination should be no problem.

 

This sounds like a really fun and interesting project. I'll put some of the types that we've had success with too, if you're interested.

codlasher

[felixthelogchopper]

This sounds like a really fun and interesting project. I'll put some of the types that we've had success with too, if you're interested.

codlasher

 

Definitely. All information gratefully received.

[agg221]

Hi Alec,

 

The estate in question is 110 acres near Ingatestone and has 2 separate orchards, one consisting of 2 lines of espaliers in a formal walled garden which are in good condition and the other one further from the house consisting of trees in a grid pattern. I have counted up over 30 empty pits or dead trees in this part and it is this I want to revive. Any fruit produced is used by the house (and estate team ) with any surplus taken into work by the owner where it is given to the staff at his company. I am fortunate in that, having managed to get the grounds in good order quite successfully, I am given a free hand with regards to projects. The family who own the estate enjoy the fruit and veg that we produce for them, as well as being very much into the heritage and ecological aspects of the estate so I would prefer to concentrate on fruit with good flavour rather than uniformity of appearance. I would like to go for a mix of culinary and dessert apples, ideally with a reasonable spread of harvesting season. We have been lucky this year as one of two vacant hives in the second orchard has been occupied by a swarm of bees so pollination should be no problem.

 

OK, assuming all apples?

 

D'Arcy Spice (1785 raised in Tolleshunt D'Arcy) I would say is an excellent choice. Not very attractive appearance, but excellent for flavour and pretty disease resistant.

 

Queen (aka Essex Queen, Billericay, 1858) - I don't know this one personally, but is reasonably long keeping cooker (Sept-Dec) and breaks down to a puree like a Bramley does.

 

Monarch (1888, raised by Seabrooks in Boreham) - an excellent cooker, keeps through to Jan and again breaks down to a puree. It's not too sharp so doesn't need a lot of sugar added.

 

Dr Harvey (Saffron Walden, 1629) is a large golden colour with some russett. It's a good cooker, which again breaks down to a puree. It keeps to about Jan. I have a personal interest in this one as it's named after master of my old college

 

There's also Chelmsford Wonder, which I don't know but keeps through to April apparently.

 

Less local, but I also like Newton Wonder (raised in Derby, introduced 1887) which is a good, long-keeping cooker with red streaking and a good flavour. It gets sweet enough to be worth keeping the smaller ones in store as late season eaters. I would also go for Annie Elizabeth which is a very long storing cooker (raised 1957 in Leicester) - it's another cooker, but keeps right through to June and has the useful feature that the fruit doesn't break down when cooked, so it's ideal for flans and similar.

 

For eaters, I would break all the rules and have at least one Discovery, as I reckon it's one of the best 20th century varieties with all the advantages of both its parents (Beauty of Bath and Worcester Pearmain). You could try Rosemary Russett (before 1831) which is at its best around Christmas with excellent flavour, although not 'nutty' like a true russett. Duke of Devonshire (1835) isn't even really ripe until February, so if you have somewhere to store it you get one of the longest keeping eaters. Orleans Reinette (before 1776) has outstanding flavour, of the russett type, and is a really attractive yellow with orange flush, netted with russetting. It's a Christmas apple at its peak. Adam's Pearmain (before 1830) is a good keeper for after Christmas, through to March. It has a rich/sharp/sweet flavour combination in the way that a properly grown Cox does, but it's not as aromatic and the trees are much less temperamental. Court Pendu Plat (Roman!) is a very hardy (small) tree and has excellently flavoured fruit for after Christmas. Egremont Russett - the classic russett flavour for Oct-Nov, and grows well in EA, there are still orchards of this around Cambridge.

 

There are thousands of others, but this should give a few ideas for thought.

 

It's worth looking out for The Book of Apples (Joan Morgan and Alison Richards), and "The Good Fruit Guide" by Lawrence D Hills, the former can currently be had on abebooks for £4.85 which is an absolute bargain. These give descriptions of a wide range of varieties, with origins, and help select pollinating partners etc.

 

What form are the trees in - delayed open centre bush or half standard/standard? Also what spacing? That will determine the rootstock selection?

 

Alec

[felixthelogchopper]

OK, assuming all apples?

 

D'Arcy Spice (1785 raised in Tolleshunt D'Arcy) I would say is an excellent choice. Not very attractive appearance, but excellent for flavour and pretty disease resistant.

 

Queen (aka Essex Queen, Billericay, 1858) - I don't know this one personally, but is reasonably long keeping cooker (Sept-Dec) and breaks down to a puree like a Bramley does.

 

Monarch (1888, raised by Seabrooks in Boreham) - an excellent cooker, keeps through to Jan and again breaks down to a puree. It's not too sharp so doesn't need a lot of sugar added.

 

Dr Harvey (Saffron Walden, 1629) is a large golden colour with some russett. It's a good cooker, which again breaks down to a puree. It keeps to about Jan. I have a personal interest in this one as it's named after master of my old college

 

There's also Chelmsford Wonder, which I don't know but keeps through to April apparently.

 

Less local, but I also like Newton Wonder (raised in Derby, introduced 1887) which is a good, long-keeping cooker with red streaking and a good flavour. It gets sweet enough to be worth keeping the smaller ones in store as late season eaters. I would also go for Annie Elizabeth which is a very long storing cooker (raised 1957 in Leicester) - it's another cooker, but keeps right through to June and has the useful feature that the fruit doesn't break down when cooked, so it's ideal for flans and similar.

 

For eaters, I would break all the rules and have at least one Discovery, as I reckon it's one of the best 20th century varieties with all the advantages of both its parents (Beauty of Bath and Worcester Pearmain). You could try Rosemary Russett (before 1831) which is at its best around Christmas with excellent flavour, although not 'nutty' like a true russett. Duke of Devonshire (1835) isn't even really ripe until February, so if you have somewhere to store it you get one of the longest keeping eaters. Orleans Reinette (before 1776) has outstanding flavour, of the russett type, and is a really attractive yellow with orange flush, netted with russetting. It's a Christmas apple at its peak. Adam's Pearmain (before 1830) is a good keeper for after Christmas, through to March. It has a rich/sharp/sweet flavour combination in the way that a properly grown Cox does, but it's not as aromatic and the trees are much less temperamental. Court Pendu Plat (Roman!) is a very hardy (small) tree and has excellently flavoured fruit for after Christmas. Egremont Russett - the classic russett flavour for Oct-Nov, and grows well in EA, there are still orchards of this around Cambridge.

 

There are thousands of others, but this should give a few ideas for thought.

 

It's worth looking out for The Book of Apples (Joan Morgan and Alison Richards), and "The Good Fruit Guide" by Lawrence D Hills, the former can currently be had on abebooks for £4.85 which is an absolute bargain. These give descriptions of a wide range of varieties, with origins, and help select pollinating partners etc.

 

What form are the trees in - delayed open centre bush or half standard/standard? Also what spacing? That will determine the rootstock selection?

 

Alec

 

Some very interesting leads there. I'm afraid you have assumed a better technical knowledge than I have with the form question . How about I take some pics when I get in on Monday, along with pacing out the gapping and I will post the results? I'd just like to say that I really do appreciate your taking the time to guide me.

[agg221]

Some very interesting leads there. I'm afraid you have assumed a better technical knowledge than I have with the form question . How about I take some pics when I get in on Monday, along with pacing out the gapping and I will post the results? I'd just like to say that I really do appreciate your taking the time to guide me.

 

Yes, photos and spacing would be good. I'd guess Gollum and Peasgood will be along at some point too. Btw, I meant 1857 for Annie Elizabeth, not 1957!

 

Alec