Potential ANCIENT tree removal

[JonnyVine]

Please excuse my lack of knowledge, but I struggle to understand how any of us can speculate to be able to have saved this tree when so much additional evidence is required before a decision like this could be made with any positivity, otherwise why not say you are just guessing?

 

No one has yet seen even a clear photograph of the lowest basal section, let alone phisicaly tested the butt!

 

Even a superficial view via photo appears to show very little residual wall left, I am aware, that the risk can be "acceptably" reduced with any tree no matter how decayed, but this would involve such a massive reduction that hardly anything would be left.

 

Treeser, "sinuses" I am unfamilliar with this term, it appears to have manifested on this thread, could you point me to a reference of its origin please.

[raafbeard]

the risk can be "acceptably" reduced with any tree no matter how decayed, but this would involve such a massive reduction that hardly anything would be left.

 

I think this would have been the only alternative in this situation..

[David Humphries]

Even a superficial view via photo appears to show very little residual wall left

 

jonny, I wouldn't entirely agree that the image portrays what I would consider a "very little residual wall"

 

 

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[JonnyVine]

II did actualy say "appears" to have very little left David and how can you see the rest of the trunk? Are you guessing the rest is better, it could be worse! I have not forgot that this tree was massive and targets were plenty and of the highest value so I just thought that maybe guessing was inappropriate here.

I am supprised that someone of your ability and experience would not want to know more before commiting himself to a definite answer, I know you have retained some horror stories (with excellent results) but this one is a tetchy subject that would make me uneasy.

 

Jonny

[treeseer]

II did actualy say "appears" to have very little left David and how can you see the rest of the trunk? Are you guessing the rest is better, it could be worse! ...

Probably not. The notch is cut near ground level, where one would expect the most decay to be. Plus,

 

Discoloration is not decay.

 

Sinus is a noun, plural si·nus·es. 1. a curve; bend. 2. a curving part or recess. 3. Anatomy . a. any of various cavities, recesses...(concavity)

 

John Goodfellow of Washington, US, followed with a look from the utility perspective at branches that overhang wires. The damage to tree stability from “ground-to-sky” pruning when contractors take previously reduced limbs back to the trunk has cost utilities , Goodfellow noted along with many others that “Crown reduction is too beneficial a technique not to study.” His work has identified a CFZ—Critical Fracture Zone—where branches typically fail, a short distance out from the origin. Goodfellow found that observable “defects” are poor indicators of failure. Direct observations of branches bent by snow after a storm were extremely valuable. Experiments are being designed with reduction cuts being made at different points on the branch, testing each for strength. In one study, a 15% crown reduction increased stability by 50%. Goodfellow, whose foresight spearheaded the gathering, observed that we cannot control trees, but we can manage them.

 

http://www.ecosync.com/tdworld/Branch%20Failure%20Investigation.pdf

 

16) Sinn, Günter, and Lothar Wessolly. 1989. A contribution to the proper assessment of the strength and stability of trees. Arboricultural Journal 13:45–65.

 

Note: this thread was a dead horse until ross kicked it.

[JonnyVine]

Probably not. The notch is cut near ground level, where one would expect the most decay to be. Plus,

 

Discoloration is not decay.

 

Sinus is a noun, plural si·nus·es. 1. a curve; bend. 2. a curving part or recess. 3. Anatomy . a. any of various cavities, recesses...(concavity)

 

John Goodfellow of Washington, US, followed with a look from the utility perspective at branches that overhang wires. The damage to tree stability from “ground-to-sky” pruning when contractors take previously reduced limbs back to the trunk has cost utilities , Goodfellow noted along with many others that “Crown reduction is too beneficial a technique not to study.” His work has identified a CFZ—Critical Fracture Zone—where branches typically fail, a short distance out from the origin. Goodfellow found that observable “defects” are poor indicators of failure. Direct observations of branches bent by snow after a storm were extremely valuable. Experiments are being designed with reduction cuts being made at different points on the branch, testing each for strength. In one study, a 15% crown reduction increased stability by 50%. Goodfellow, whose foresight spearheaded the gathering, observed that we cannot control trees, but we can manage them.

 

http://www.ecosync.com/tdworld/Branch%20Failure%20Investigation.pdf

 

16) Sinn, Günter, and Lothar Wessolly. 1989. A contribution to the proper assessment of the strength and stability of trees. Arboricultural Journal 13:45–65.

 

Note: this thread was a dead horse until ross kicked it.

 

I never heard that term applied to a tree before and couldn't find it in any of my books from accross the water either.

 

I completely agree that discolouration is not tantamount to decay, or even incipient decay, but, the hardness mentioned earlier is equaly not tantamount to tree strength and in most cases can be a weakness as it makes the wood too stiff and brittle.

 

Unfortunately, I am viewing the pictures from an iphone, however, I can still see vast quantities of dysfunctional wood, how much is discouloration I am not going to guess and as far as residual wall is concerned, I was looking to the right of the trunk where it is much thinner and appears to be none existent in some places!

 

Yes Ross did give the thread a kick, but its a good thread and clearly relevant to quite a lot of peoples every day employment, so, as the saying goes over here "its good to talk".

[David Humphries]

Yes Ross did give the thread a kick, but its a good thread and clearly relevant to quite a lot of peoples every day employment, so, as the saying goes over here "its good to talk".

 

I think that this is the fundamental aspect to forum discussion jonny.

I also agree, it is a good thread.

 

These issues are often all just about opinions aren't they?

I don't believe anyone is actually offering actionable advice within the threads.

My opinions (like most I suspect) are based on experience of witnessing and looking at a significant number of tree failures over 20 or so years.

But it should be acknowledged that a large volume of my work is in retaining trees in both the urban and peri-urban environment for the benefit of wildlife & the public.

With that in mind, my views will not always tally with others who have a different focus in terms of tree management.

 

 

 

 

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[treeseer]

"I never heard that term applied to a tree before and couldn't find it in any of my books from across the water either."

 

what else does one call those areas?

 

"I completely agree that discolouration is not tantamount to decay, or even incipient decay, but, the hardness mentioned earlier is equaly not tantamount to tree strength"

 

are you sure

 

" and in most cases can be a weakness as it makes the wood too stiff and brittle."

 

what is your reference for 'most'? that wood does not look embrittled.

 

"Unfortunately, I am viewing the pictures from an iphone,"

 

handy tool.

 

" however, I can still see vast quantities of dysfunctional wood," how much is discouloration I am not going to guess"

 

isn't "dysfunctional" a guess? And isn't 'vast' therefore an exaggeration based on a guess? And why do you not notice or mention anything positive about the tree? Assessment should be unbiased.

 

' and as far as residual wall is concerned, I was looking to the right of the trunk where it is much thinner and appears to be none existent in some places!"

 

that is the definition of an open cavity, which is too common to get alarmed about. From Diagnosis and Prognosis of Wood Decay in Urban Trees: “In the past there has been an increasing tendency to simplify complex concepts in tree risk assessment. The danger is that with any simplification, a certain degree of inaccuracy has to be taken into account... it, will probably err on the side of caution. … Any arborist who undertakes tree risk assessment should have a profound knowledge of not only the procedures and diagnostic techniques, but first and foremost of host-fungus associations.”

 

I don't believe anyone is actually offering actionable advice within the threads.

 

Not I, said the little red hen! not without adequate info anyway...

 

My opinions (like most I suspect) are based on experience of witnessing and looking at a significant number of tree failures--and successes!-- over 40 or so years.

But it should be acknowledged that a large volume of my work is in retaining trees in the urban environment for the benefit of private owners who value them. Avoiding oversimplification, exaggeration and hasty judgments is a key part of that effort.

Edited January 9, 2013 by treeseer

[Ross Smith]

Fantastic gents

Just what i was after, an insight into your much valued knowledge

 

So is kicking a thread a good thing or a bad thing ???

[JonnyVine]

I think the evidence speaks for itself Ross, like David and myself have said its a cracking thread!

Only down side IMO is that you haven't posted a pic of the final buttress cut, square on at 90%, I think quite a number on here would have loved to have seen one.