Agricultural Occupancy condition

[Rick2517]

Please don't assume that it puts a buyer in a strong position.... struggling to find a buyer may well be the seller's trump card as if it turns out no one can afford to buy and comply they will have good cause and evidence to appeal the AgOc with the local authority. The seller is far better placed to have the condition removed and as the property would then go up in value 25-30% overnight it is most definitely worth the hassle and the wait.

 

Price reduction held sufficient to remove farm tie: The council accepted that there was no realistic prospect of an agricultural use being re-established on the site and that an adequate marketing exercise had been carried out. However, it argued that the 30% discount at which the dwelling had been offered was insufficient to reflect the condition, maintaining that a discount of up to 50% might have been appropriate. The appellant argued that 30% is a commonly used discount on properties with an agricultural tie. The inspector argued that the council had produced little evidence to substantiate its case for a bigger discount…

 

I'm pretty confidant that this is the sellers thoughts as the property is without doubt overpriced (compared to other bigger and more modern properties on the market) so if I was to make an offer of what I think was a sensible amount then this would surely make the owners fight to lift the restriction allot harder as the councill will know that interest has been shown and a sensible offer made but refused!!

However I think if this was to happen then I will have a very un happy farmer on my hands and probably the locals who will do everything he can to make sure I don't get to purchase and use the land for what I intend!

I know that in the big picture the odds are against my intentions but I'm not one for giving up without first exploring all of my options.

It just makes no sense that if the councill is to go to the hastle of enforcing thees restrictions and then make it so hard for us to take up the opportunity to abide by it and use the place and the land for an expanding business?

[Rick2517]

Regarding planning permission for selling logs. It is a situation we have just gone through. We bought an ex council farm 4 years ago, ie a farmhouse, about 15 000 square feet of buildings and 8 acres. I have run my tree surgery business since 1986 and sold logs since then from my previous yard about 4 miles away. Following a call to the local council from a neighbour, we had a visit from the planning enforcement officer who established that we needed B2 and B8 industrial for our firewood business, one being necessary to cut the logs up, the other to store the firewood prior to selling. It has taken us about 7 months to gain the planning, and we now pay business rates on our buildings. The acid test was do we bring the timber in from ground we dont own to process and sell. The answer to 99 % of the people who sell logs is yes. Most of the firewood sellers in the land would need planning permission to carry out there business if inspected by there local planning authority. Just because the neighbouring farmer already cuts up logs is not an indication that he does not need planning. My gut feel would be that the property is only big enough to live in, not carry out the business from.

 

I sort of share the gut feeling you have. I have seen the property and know that for now with the size of the business it will be big enough however to cover the cost of the property and business rates that it sounds like I will be shafted with I will need to dramatically expand the business and the services/products that we supply and this will take up more space and eventually out grow the land attached. There is scope to rent/buy land from the neighbouring farm but that is not a definite and it will be silly to presume this as an option.

I suppose what I'm really doing is weighing up my options and to hear from people like yourself that have been there and done it is priceless information so thanks for sharing.

Are the business rates that you pay practical for the amount of profit made from selling the logs, and how did you find the process off getting the b2 and b8 licence?

[John Barleycorn]

I know of a case of a farmer who took on a farm with an agricultural occupancy & did farm.

However he had trouble with the council planning some years later as they found he was running a firewood business & buying in all of the wood for processing. They only backed off when he convinced them he had been doing it for over ten years.

[Rick2517]

I know of a case of a farmer who took on a farm with an agricultural occupancy & did farm.

However he had trouble with the council planning some years later as they found he was running a firewood business & buying in all of the wood for processing. They only backed off when he convinced them he had been doing it for over ten years.

 

My plan is not to avoid doing things by the book and if I was to use the yard for firewood production and sales the I will first get the b2 and b8 conditions cleared with the councill. Then I can enjoy throwing the little profit I make back into the hands of the government and make it even less worthwhile working hard to expand my business and give otherwise unemployed benefit claimers a job!!

Although it actually makes sense to take the chance and see if you get caught!!

 

I've been to the estate agent today who blatantly admitted to me that the seller has overpriced the property to avoid attracting offers and hopefully lifting the restriction!

 

I'm just gonna sit back and see what happens, if he doesn't get the restriction lifted then I may find myself in an interesting situation to make an offer!!

[dustydave]

I've offered on about 7 agric occ. properties in the last 7-years (Wiltshire) and every one has been for sale purely to prove that they could not sell - so that they could later apply to have the condition lifted. I've even looked at a building plot with house at footings stage, that got the agric. condition lifted before the house was built.

 

I wouldn't get your heart set on it

[gensetsteve]

Looking at the pic its around an acre. I dont see any buildings but I would say an acre of ag land is worth 7-15k if it can be used for a pony it may make 30k tops. With the noise problem it may pay you to look else where anyway unless it comes cheap. I have considered a small woodland say 3 acres clear a track and make a small clearing to work in. Chainsaw noises coming from woodland does not seem to attract as much attention. I am sure living in a log cabin is quite nice

[Marko]

I struggled for ages with very similar dilemmas and in the end bought the agricultural land adjacent to this Land for sale: 12 acres of Grade 1 agricultural land at Banks near Tarleton, Heskth Bank, Banks and Southport, West Lancashire / Merseyside and planted my own woodland around the workspaces I needed. I just wish I had done it years ago rather than wait to try and find the "ideal" property.

[Rick2517]

I've offered on about 7 agric occ. properties in the last 7-years (Wiltshire) and every one has been for sale purely to prove that they could not sell - so that they could later apply to have the condition lifted. I've even looked at a building plot with house at footings stage, that got the agric. condition lifted before the house was built.

 

I wouldn't get your heart set on it

 

Thanks Dave, the reality is as you say it will be lifted and sell for silly money.

Wouldn't it be great tho if we found a great loophole to bag some bargain properties just for doing the job we love?

I spoke to the farmer/owners son today, he was very pleasant and very up-front with his intentions. He is unwilling to accept that this condition will stick and even if it does he wants the market value (with no condition) or he just won't sell!

I left him with my card and said good luck to him!!!! who knows!!

[StephF]

Hi Guys,

I have been doing a bit of research into buying a property which is under a Agricultural Occupancy condition. I am no expert in this field and I am struggling to get any straight answers by searching on-line so thought I would start this thread to see if anybody has delt or looked into this before.

My situation is this: I have a small tree surgery firm based in Bristol I employ 3 men inc myself and we currently rent yard space in a local farm, My dream scenario would be to by a property to live and run the business from, I have came across a fantastic looking house with just about enough land to run our business from and I am wondering if our trade "tree surgery" will comply with the Agricultural Occupancy condition? also as this property has this condition I am assuming that there are no problems with running our business in terms of noise pollution and everything els that us noisy and messy arb guys get up to in the yard (storing chip and logs etc...)

 

I am suspecting that there may be a clause as the business is not "farming a crop" on the land so I was wondering if I was to begin growing/farming a crop of Christmas trees would this qualify??

 

any thoughts/advise would be greatly appreciated and may benefit allot of other guys on here thinking of taking advantage of the perks of our trade!!

 

Many thanks in advance Rich

 

This is something we had to deal with, around 2003. Had bought house with a tie, about 12 years previously, as the estate agents presumed as tree surgeons we complied with the agricultural restriction as it came under 'forestry'.

10 years later we got the tie lifted through court (can give you solicitors details), as Tree surgery does NOT comply with an agricultural tie restriction,( you can operate out of an industrial unit and do not need land etc.)This had previously been decided by a court of law and was the legal ground our solicitor used for our tie to be lifted -( we had lived in the house for the required period of time without complying and it had not been contested.) It is 'Forestry', not tree surgery that complies.

It cost us a few £1,000 but house was worth a huge amount more once tie got lifted. Hope this helps

[Rick2517]

This is something we had to deal with, around 2003. Had bought house with a tie, about 12 years previously, as the estate agents presumed as tree surgeons we complied with the agricultural restriction as it came under 'forestry'.

10 years later we got the tie lifted through court (can give you solicitors details), as Tree surgery does NOT comply with an agricultural tie restriction,( you can operate out of an industrial unit and do not need land etc.)This had previously been decided by a court of law and was the legal ground our solicitor used for our tie to be lifted -( we had lived in the house for the required period of time without complying and it had not been contested.) It is 'Forestry', not tree surgery that complies.

It cost us a few £1,000 but house was worth a huge amount more once tie got lifted. Hope this helps

 

Steph, this is a very interesting post.....

Please can I have the details of the solicitor???

Happy ending for you then? Good on ya.

Did the guys you purchased from try to get it lifted and if so what was there reasons and situation? Also at what percentage below the market value did you pay?

Feel free to tell me to mind my own business if you wish!